Hey Paul,

My two cents is that perhaps the application of repetitions with the Performance Tool represent a somewhat temporary solution. If you've been reading the Forum carefully (which I know you have... [;)]) you've no doubt seen little hints that the VSL are up to something really big behind the scenes. In theory, the repetition _samples_ are a brilliant idea. It's just the use of the tool that's a little weird... So, I think the repetition samples will really come into their own down the road a little.
Why do I think this?
I've been working for several months now on my own MaxMSP program to take care of sample selection by analyzing midi files. This system, so far, is working very well, and one of the aspects that really shines is the use of repetition samples. In my program it's extremely simple -- when a note is repeated, if the instrument has repetition samples available, and the note durations are equal to or shorter than the available samples, then the repetitions are selected over the standard samples. But when I listen back, the effect of true, performed repetitions is really TOTALLY unlike standard up/down samples or the typical "variation 1"/"variation 2" you see in the majority of libraries. To have a sequence of notes repeated as they would be played by a living performer is a totally different sound, with a markedly different effect -- the musicality is drastically enhanced. Actually, I never noticed until I started using the Solo Strings that I was actually AVOIDING the use of repeated notes in my pieces!
So, to cut this short. I imagine the repetitions will shine, if perhaps a little later in the life of the VSL.

J.

[p.s. -- I've recently ordered a G5 as well, though I'm still awaiting shipment... I'm dying to get my hands on the bloody thing!]

Hi,

I use repetition strings a lot and couldnt live without them.

I do 2 things to make them usable for me.

1. Ussualy I program 2 keyswitches:
-one without the first and last note
-one with last note only

then I use stac 1+2 for the first notes and the second keyswitch on the end of the phrase.

2. For some reason the repetition samples are very slopy so I allways have to offset that midi chanel to start early. Ussualy betwen 20 and 140 ticks.
You offset untill it sounds tight.

Sorry if this was all covered before..[;)]

Alex

@Another User said:

2. For some reason the repetition samples are very slopy so I allways have to offset that midi chanel to start early. Ussualy betwen 20 and 140 ticks.

this is *by design* and according to the manual
christian

To me, one of the great attractions of VSL is the repetition articulations, especially for the violins, although I haven't been able to afford the performance set so far. If they ever produce an "Epic Strings" - complete with repetition and legato, I'll buy it. I can use the 14 strong violin section as the 2nd violins. [:D]

Very interesting thread.....JBM, - hope you're right, maybe there's something big round the corner! Anyway, I have been struck by a new thought....for Logic users anyhow.....when Logic 7 appears with its implementation of apple loops or in effect, real time timestretching (I use LIVE for this presently), then we could import the repetition samples into the program, trim them if needed, and use this feature to get them in time at differing tempi! This would only be applicable for same note repetitions of course, and as JBM says: a real player playing repeated notes is unlike any repeated sample manipulation. It might work?! I haven't tried this using LIVE and VSL, so have no real world evidence, but the principle's cool I think. Roll on Logic 7! Perhaps PC users can do the same thing with ACID? Can you rewire ACID to your sequencer on the PC?

I personally don't think the repetition tool is *that* hard to grok, and it's not because I'm smarter than anyone else!

Last time I explained it, Evan accused me of being a lousy writer, but hopefully this time he'll SHUT THE HECK UP if he still has that opinion. Or even if he doesn't, because I'm not in the mood to be insulted. [:)]

Okay. They record an instrument playing, say, c-c-c-c-c-c-c at a given tempo.

That repeated-note performance is chopped up into programs that start playback at the beginning of each note in the performance. Each time you play a note, a keyswitch is sent to change to another program, i.e. to start with another note from the performance.

The main reason the performance is chopped up, of course, is so you can play at your tempo rather than the recorded one. That works fine if you play at or (up to a point) faster than the recorded tempo, but the performance will get ahead of you - the next recorded note will sound - if you play slower. (The length of the notes determines the limit to how fast you can play, i.e. it will sound wrong if they overlap.)

You can specify whether a note in the performance is played or skipped by using the 1 0 1 0 stuff (1=play it, 0=skip it), you can loop that 1 0 1 0 pattern if you need more than the number of repetitions in it, and you can string together different patterns if you want a variation.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Last time I explained it, Evan accused me of being a lousy writer, but hopefully this time he'll SHUT THE HECK UP if he still has that opinion. Or even if he doesn't, because I'm not in the mood to be insulted. [:)]

Actually Nick, I remember that. And I don't think it was me who accused you. i only seconded it, because the explanation was short. if anything I thought you were a rgeat writer and asked for somethign better.

Evan Evans

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Okay. They record an instrument playing, say, c-c-c-c-c-c-c at a given tempo.

That repeated-note performance is chopped up into programs that start playback at the beginning of each note in the performance. Each time you play a note, a keyswitch is sent to change to another program, i.e. to start with another note from the performance.

The main reason the performance is chopped up, of course, is so you can play at your tempo rather than the recorded one. That works fine if you play at or (up to a point) faster than the recorded tempo, but the performance will get ahead of you - the next recorded note will sound - if you play slower. (The length of the notes determines the limit to how fast you can play, i.e. it will sound wrong if they overlap.)

You can specify whether a note in the performance is played or skipped by using the 1 0 1 0 stuff (1=play it, 0=skip it), you can loop that 1 0 1 0 pattern if you need more than the number of repetitions in it, and you can string together different patterns if you want a variation.

Ok, but WHY? how do you use it? Why would you do 1 0 1 0 ? yes, it can be done, but WHY? I just don't understand the practical use fo this tool. Please explain what situations you use the tool in and how you get it to work in those situations. That'd be great for me to hear, anyway.

Evan Evans

Only one simple example:

you have three times the same repetition phrase all on the same pitch following each other

ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa

You are using a 9rep performane, so you could set up three different phrases using different parts of the repetition.
There are so many possibilities, I'm sure that a creativ composer like you, will check it out.

best
Herb

@herb said:

ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa
You are using a 9rep performane, so you could set up three different phrases using different parts of the repetition. ... best
Herb

Ah, I see Herb, So if you wanted several iterations of the same repetitive motif to sound not repeated you would go, 1,1,1 : 1,0,1,1 : and finally 1,1,0,1 ??? This would create three reps each with the same starting note and each with its own set of repeated notes?

Evan

Exactly.
I prefer to use original start and end notes for phrases, which do have start end endings.
So I would propably use these presets:

1:0:0:0:1:1:0:0:1 -- 1:0:0:0:0:0:1:1:1 -- 1:1:1:0:0:0:0:0:1

So in this case the repetition tool helps to achieve "user-controlled randomness".

It really depends how exposed an instrument is.
If there are permanent repetitions in a tutti, I simply use a preset line, where the starting note is switched OFF.

Another cool trick to get randomness is to use different repetition counts if 2 instruments are performing repetitions in unisono.
For example bassi and celli, and they have to perform 40 or more repetition counts on the same key. (in a classical style)
You don't want to setup the repetition tool in CHAIN mode, but you want to avoid a loop character. So use for the celli this preset:

0:1:1:1:1:0:1:1:1

and for the bassi this one:

0:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1

best
Herb

Oh my goodness, I am starting to understand this now. Ok, ok. This is great. I am going ot have some fun experimenting with this in a few days. Thanks for being, well, INCREDIBLY PATIENT with me.

[;)]

Evan Evans

This is a very good thread. One question - Why do we set the first note of the rep to "O"

Thanks

Rob

Herb was saying that with lots of other instruments layered in that you wouldnt hear much difference between 1 and 0 for the first note, and so it's a way to give some variety.

Evan Evans

Excellent stuff! Even I'm getting a grip on it now!

Yeah, I think I'm about 75% there too! Can't wait to fully tinker with it to fully understand it. All my prior tinkerings did not have the practical reasoning wisdom. This info from Herb is really essential to understanding why the heck you would do what you would do with the repetition tool.

Evan Evans

@jbm said:

Hey Paul,

My two cents is that perhaps the application of repetitions with the Performance Tool represent a somewhat temporary solution. If you've been reading the Forum carefully (which I know you have... [;)]) you've no doubt seen little hints that the VSL are up to something really big behind the scenes. In theory, the repetition _samples_ are a brilliant idea. It's just the use of the tool that's a little weird... So, I think the repetition samples will really come into their own down the road a little.

[p.s. -- I've recently ordered a G5 as well, though I'm still awaiting shipment... I'm dying to get my hands on the bloody thing!]

Yes. I think you may have a very good point J.

Enjoy you G5 and make sure you put plenty of Ram in it. [[;)]]

PR

Yeah... HOLY $$$$

This is an expensive business... Who ever imagined that being composer would be this pricey!??

I mean, yeah, we can make no money, but to have to spend $10,000.00 to make no money... Now, THAT'S grim! [;)]

Anyway, 1.5 GB and counting... slowly counting...


J.

Could you please post a short example of how Repetion Samples and tool sounds.