Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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    @William said:

    There are some poor musicians who have a little bit of integrity and honesty as well as hunger. Anybody who uses pirated samples is willing to screw over other poor and hungry musicians who created those samples. So you can take your justification for criminal behavior to the local police station. I don't buy it.


    Yes, William, I do agree in principle. However, I think piracy is here to stay. It's not a problem you can completely eliminate. All you can do is try to minimize it.
    Which reminds me, I just thought of a kind of sample library piracy that would really get me mad, especially since it's completely undetectable. Composers who use high quality pirated sample libraries to compose for live ensembles. For which, presumably, they are getting paid well enough. I don't know if there really is anything a dev can do about that though. Except raise the prices to try and compensate. Which we see enough of. I don't like it, but I understand why it's done.

    ~Chris

  • There are times when it's completely ethical. I could come up with a scenario that even the VSL team might approve of.

    Evan Evans

  • evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian


    "It's" = "it is" [[;)]]
    Take it from a writer. That's what it means. Though I'm not sure which circumstances Evan is refering to. I'm not really proud of the fact that I've borrowed software. I'm certainly trying to do it less and less. It's not that I can't afford to buy. It's that I can't afford to buy and make a mistake on a purchase. So sometimes I try first. I NEVER use a "borrowed" software in a commercial venture. But it's hard for me to give up my extended demos . . . [:O]ops:
    But I do not "borrow" samples. I like to support the devs as much as possible.

    ~Chris

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    @cm said:

    evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian


    P2P based file sharing.

    Evan Evans

  • An example would be to obtain a piece of software that has since gone bankrupt and disappeared in order to open up and backup and convert your old files.

    A company called OPCODE comes to mind.

    There are many many more completely ethical uses of P2P.

    Evan Evans

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    A

    @Another User said:

    Originally posted by evanevans
    and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.

    Evan Evans


    Somehow "A" doesn't tie in with "B" .... [:)]

  • Evan,

    If you have "old" Opcode files, one can imagine you also have a legal copy of the app. Unless of course you pirated it before....
    [*-)]

    Next example....?

    Regards - Colin

  • Great point! Just because you are downloading an app on a P2P based system doesn't mean you are illegally using the software. That is somethign I said before.

    Evan Evans

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    @evanevans said:

    Great point! Just because you are downloading an app on a P2P based system doesn't mean you are illegally using the software. That is somethign I said before.

    Evan Evans


    Okay, I'm with you on this one. One example. I often dowload utilities to circumvent copy protection and registration hassles for software I already own. I find it easier to make my own reg code with a keygen than to wait send off my computer info and hope the dev gets back to me in a timely fashion.

    ~Chris

  • Evan - you're missing my point completely.
    I'm saying that if you have Opcode files, you should have the software as well, or at least the installer disk(s). Otherwise, where did the files originate?

    So, where's the need to download the app again from somewhere, unless your original copy was pirated as well?

    I understand your point, but do NOT agree.

    Colin

  • Just a quick reply as a friend directed me to this forum. Piracy like breaking into somewhere and taking it/stealing a car. Ok, a fair analogy if not an entirely accurate one. I don't regularly use vsl myself or similar programs but I have used them during studies and am familiar with the problems of pirating but your analogy?....just made me think "he's right equipment is too expensive I'm gonna rob me a guitar !" now I'm not going to do it but that is what your analogy sugested to me. Just to check wouldn't that be" incitement to commit crime " ? cheers [:)]

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    Musos, you are apparently presumptious. First you PRESUME that I missed your point, then you PRESUME that your explanation could be the only situation to encapsulate all scenarios and then draw definitve (read: NOT open) conclusion(s) based on your presumptions. Dude, there are more possibilities out there than what you can think of, you know? So, having said my piece on that, I will respond to what you've said:

    @Another User said:

    I understand your point, but do NOT agree.
    Colin
    Try not to be so quick to jump to conclusions. Einstein worked his whole life trying to prove certian theories. He never concluded anything. Some of his theories were later able to be tested and concluded using the scientific method. But he never PRESUMED to have CONCLUSIVE results unless he did!

    No hard feelings at all mate, but it's just a little annoying to have to be up against such incredible conlusions, some of which were directly about my own conclusions which you at this point can only have misunderstood as such.

    Peace and let's be a little more open next time. To be so conclusive is how countries fall, religions murder, evil reigns, etc. The best thing that ever happened to human nature was when we said, "I am not sure."

    Evan Evans

  • A record producer I worked with - liked working with a lot actually - impressed me the most when, asked how we wre going to deal with a certain problem, said: "I'm not sure (yet)".

    But don't be too hard on anybody here because of linguistic preferences....

    back to piracy: Software companies and developers could go a long way to encourage loyalty. Building and maintaining a relationship with Cross-grades, upgrades, fair pricing, support; for example, Advanced Orchestra came out last year, completely re-worked for EXS. I bought it. The price was fair and it was a major update. Miroslav Vitous, on the other hand -(which I would probably like to buy too) is an example of a great library which needs a price drop and a reworking IMHO. Dan Dean is very cool, takes care of his customers. Steinberg don't endear themselves to me - The Grand will probably never appear as Audio Unit! VSL are tops in support, and their prices are (mostly) very fair I think.

    End of rant mode.

    Nigel

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    @Nigel Watson said:

    . . . The price was fair and it was a major update. Miroslav Vitous, on the other hand -(which I would probably like to buy too) is an example of a great library which needs a price drop and a reworking IMHO. Dan Dean is very cool, takes care of his customers. Steinberg don't endear themselves to me - The Grand will probably never appear as Audio Unit! VSL are tops in support, and their prices are (mostly) very fair I think . . .


    Who's to say what's "fair"? The software is the property of the developer. They can do whatever they want with it. Whether that means setting the price at a marketable level, or jacking it up and pricing themselves out of business. In the end, it is their stuff. In a free market economy, competition ensures that developers can price things at a level that will bring them income but also at a level that the average professional will be able to afford it.
    Piracy (at least the kind that makes a profit on the stolen software) throws a cog in the wheel and forces the devs to collectively raise prices based on their estimations of how much will be lost through piracy. Now, I do not believe that products like VSL are ripped off to the extent that has been estimated, but that's not really the point. The point is that they have to estimate these things.
    Commercial piracy is a vicious cycle. Pros rip off software because it's "too expensive," developers raise the price tag because they are losing money to pirates, and the pirates feel more justified in ripping of the developers, who will raise prices . . . etc. The developers are not doing anything wrong here. They are simply responding to the demands of a glitch in the free market and attempting to remain in business. This is why new PC games are running at $60 right now when they were $40 only a couple years ago. It is piracy-driven inflation.
    Now, I still stand by what I said earlier about how a certain kind of "borrowing" can have the effect of helping all parties involved. Which does not make the means right, of course. But I can say with certainty that there are several developers who have me as their loyal customer now that would not have had me had I not had access to pirated software. Cakewalk SONAR, for instance. I "borrowed" it off a file-share site, used it for a few months, got used to the interface, etc. I finally decided I couldn't live without it, and went and purchased a fully licensed copy. That's just one case.
    There are ways for a developer to take this idea and use it to advantage. Such as Softimage 3D. The nearly complete version is freely available for download at the website. The only limitations are that that the file format it saves will not open on the professional version, and the render resolution is locked to just below broadcast quality. Otherwise it is fully funcional. This takes away the temptation for people to illigitimately acquire software, while at the same time ensuring that it cannot be used for commercial applications.

    ~Chris

  • I still don't quite get it. Why would someone that owns Vision need to download a copy?

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    @mike connelly said:

    I still don't quite get it. Why would someone that owns Vision need to download a copy?


    Might be easier than backing up? Or maybe the original is damaged. Could be for any number of reasons. If they are legitimate owners, I don't see a problem with it.

    ~Chris

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    @Galleddrim said:


    Commercial piracy is a vicious cycle. Pros rip off software because it's "too expensive," developers raise the price tag because they are losing money to pirates, and the pirates feel more justified in ripping of the developers, who will raise prices . . . etc. The developers are not doing anything wrong here. They are simply responding to the demands of a glitch in the free market and attempting to remain in business. This is why new PC games are running at $60 right now when they were $40 only a couple years ago. It is piracy-driven inflation.
    Here's a different point of view by Brad Wardell of Stardock and Galactic Civilizations fame. As a game developer and publisher himself he has some insight into the business and he comes up with a very different conclusion:

    http://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895&u=0

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    @Nigel Watson said:

    A record producer I worked with - liked working with a lot actually - impressed me the most when, asked how we wre going to deal with a certain problem, said: "I'm not sure (yet)".
    Yeah, there'sa lot of confidence in that. It means, he is "like water" as Bruce Lee said. Able to form and change into whatever condition is currently applicable.

    "Be like water" - Bruce lee

    Evan Evans

  • Jean...that is an important point. The guy basically says that (some)software developers are ripping off the public by selling unreliable products.

    http://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895&u=0
    (the Link again)

    And it is indeed an incredible cheek to take money from someone for something half-finished. But it happens quite a bit.

    That doesn't apply so much to straight sample developers of course, but the lines are blurring as more sound companies wrap their products in a plug in, or supply tools to make them work. How much time do you spend downloading and installing updates,on the phone to support, trying to get your system working stably so you can.....? what? -oh yeah, it was music that got me into this, right?

    I was more productive 10 years ago with an Atari and hardware samplers!

    Nigel