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  • hehe... good reply, PolarBear!

    Just to throw in a comment...

    First a disclaimer: Yes, piracy is wrong, and yes I own all my VSL. Also, in the case of VSL, the price is totally justified when you consider the enormous financial outlay that this company has made to create such a brilliant product -- from hiring musicians, editors, and programmers, right up to building their own studio!!! (Still makes my head spin...) There is no question, in this case, of an inflated price based on a sort of "secret code" philosophy.

    With that out of the way, there's also much to be said for the theory behind open-source development, which strives to significantly lower development costs by "open-sourcing" large parts of the code used in the final program. This way, a great deal of the code can be written (at least in theory) at little or no expense to the company which is proposing the final software package, thus lowering costs to the end user. As an example, I've got my Linux machine running a server perfectly efficiently, and legally, at very little cost to myself (at least in software). Obviously, this is the whole idea with Linux. Mind you, it can be a real pain in the ass to get running, which is, of course, the "down side" to almost all current open-source software.

    But the basic idea thrown about by the open-source community is that the philosophy of "we did it first" or "secret code" software is a large contributor to the massive expense of producing many of the commercial products we see today. They feel that piracy will be around forever, so perhaps it is time for developers to start shifting their thinking with regard to the secrecy of their ideas, and start making use of the absolutely massive "work force" available to them in the open-source community. It's not that piracy is justified, but rather that it is, at least partly, a symptom of secrecy.

    Now don't burn me alive... This is neither a fact, nor my personal opinion (though I do see the sense in it). it's just a philosophy on the subject that's been around for a while. That is, "I'm just the messenger". And as I said before, this obviously does not apply in the case of VSL or, for that matter, any company releasing professional orchestral samples, for which the production expense it quite transparent.

    Also, the first company who builds my Dream Program (choir and Heavenly light) for scoring with samples will definitely see me madly throwing whatever money I can muster their way!


    cheers,

    J.

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    @evanevans said:

    and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.

    Evan Evans


    [:D]
    Care to elaborate?
    [:D]

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    @evanevans said:

    and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.

    Evan Evans


    [:D]
    Care to elaborate?
    [:D]

    Maybe according to Evan's personal ethics system? [[;)]]

    Evan, I'm not picking on you, really. Like I've noted before, I've been guilty of "borrowing" in the past.

    ~Chris

  • I prefer to "own" the originals ....and I've paid for VSL, and countless other libraries. I spend more on software than I ever did on hardware!

    [H] But I like getting sounds for free!

    I doubt there is one musician on this forum who hasn't at some time used sounds he/she hasn't paid for. You can be "hungry for sound".....the sounds are there if you are "poor and need to eat".

    And some sound/software developers do not value their customers as highly as (we think) VSl do.....that doesn't encourage loyalty.

    Yes, piracy is a handicap....but a bigger issue is fostering mutual respect/support between users and producers. VSL is tops in that respect.

    Nigel

  • There are some poor musicians who have a little bit of integrity and honesty as well as hunger. Anybody who uses pirated samples is willing to screw over other poor and hungry musicians who created those samples. So you can take your justification for criminal behavior to the local police station. I don't buy it.

  • Nice reply William

    I have to say I've given it some more thought - as well as reading an interesting post from the Chicken Systems developer:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17972

    .....and actually, you're right.

    Nigel

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    @William said:

    There are some poor musicians who have a little bit of integrity and honesty as well as hunger. Anybody who uses pirated samples is willing to screw over other poor and hungry musicians who created those samples. So you can take your justification for criminal behavior to the local police station. I don't buy it.


    Yes, William, I do agree in principle. However, I think piracy is here to stay. It's not a problem you can completely eliminate. All you can do is try to minimize it.
    Which reminds me, I just thought of a kind of sample library piracy that would really get me mad, especially since it's completely undetectable. Composers who use high quality pirated sample libraries to compose for live ensembles. For which, presumably, they are getting paid well enough. I don't know if there really is anything a dev can do about that though. Except raise the prices to try and compensate. Which we see enough of. I don't like it, but I understand why it's done.

    ~Chris

  • There are times when it's completely ethical. I could come up with a scenario that even the VSL team might approve of.

    Evan Evans

  • evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian


    "It's" = "it is" [[;)]]
    Take it from a writer. That's what it means. Though I'm not sure which circumstances Evan is refering to. I'm not really proud of the fact that I've borrowed software. I'm certainly trying to do it less and less. It's not that I can't afford to buy. It's that I can't afford to buy and make a mistake on a purchase. So sometimes I try first. I NEVER use a "borrowed" software in a commercial venture. But it's hard for me to give up my extended demos . . . [:O]ops:
    But I do not "borrow" samples. I like to support the devs as much as possible.

    ~Chris

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    @cm said:

    evan, please explain the reflexive *it's* - hopefully i don't have to understand it as i understood (.... you know, my clumsy english ...)
    christian


    P2P based file sharing.

    Evan Evans

  • An example would be to obtain a piece of software that has since gone bankrupt and disappeared in order to open up and backup and convert your old files.

    A company called OPCODE comes to mind.

    There are many many more completely ethical uses of P2P.

    Evan Evans

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    A

    @Another User said:

    Originally posted by evanevans
    and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.

    Evan Evans


    Somehow "A" doesn't tie in with "B" .... [:)]

  • Evan,

    If you have "old" Opcode files, one can imagine you also have a legal copy of the app. Unless of course you pirated it before....
    [*-)]

    Next example....?

    Regards - Colin

  • Great point! Just because you are downloading an app on a P2P based system doesn't mean you are illegally using the software. That is somethign I said before.

    Evan Evans

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    @evanevans said:

    Great point! Just because you are downloading an app on a P2P based system doesn't mean you are illegally using the software. That is somethign I said before.

    Evan Evans


    Okay, I'm with you on this one. One example. I often dowload utilities to circumvent copy protection and registration hassles for software I already own. I find it easier to make my own reg code with a keygen than to wait send off my computer info and hope the dev gets back to me in a timely fashion.

    ~Chris

  • Evan - you're missing my point completely.
    I'm saying that if you have Opcode files, you should have the software as well, or at least the installer disk(s). Otherwise, where did the files originate?

    So, where's the need to download the app again from somewhere, unless your original copy was pirated as well?

    I understand your point, but do NOT agree.

    Colin

  • Just a quick reply as a friend directed me to this forum. Piracy like breaking into somewhere and taking it/stealing a car. Ok, a fair analogy if not an entirely accurate one. I don't regularly use vsl myself or similar programs but I have used them during studies and am familiar with the problems of pirating but your analogy?....just made me think "he's right equipment is too expensive I'm gonna rob me a guitar !" now I'm not going to do it but that is what your analogy sugested to me. Just to check wouldn't that be" incitement to commit crime " ? cheers [:)]

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    Musos, you are apparently presumptious. First you PRESUME that I missed your point, then you PRESUME that your explanation could be the only situation to encapsulate all scenarios and then draw definitve (read: NOT open) conclusion(s) based on your presumptions. Dude, there are more possibilities out there than what you can think of, you know? So, having said my piece on that, I will respond to what you've said:

    @Another User said:

    I understand your point, but do NOT agree.
    Colin
    Try not to be so quick to jump to conclusions. Einstein worked his whole life trying to prove certian theories. He never concluded anything. Some of his theories were later able to be tested and concluded using the scientific method. But he never PRESUMED to have CONCLUSIVE results unless he did!

    No hard feelings at all mate, but it's just a little annoying to have to be up against such incredible conlusions, some of which were directly about my own conclusions which you at this point can only have misunderstood as such.

    Peace and let's be a little more open next time. To be so conclusive is how countries fall, religions murder, evil reigns, etc. The best thing that ever happened to human nature was when we said, "I am not sure."

    Evan Evans

  • A record producer I worked with - liked working with a lot actually - impressed me the most when, asked how we wre going to deal with a certain problem, said: "I'm not sure (yet)".

    But don't be too hard on anybody here because of linguistic preferences....

    back to piracy: Software companies and developers could go a long way to encourage loyalty. Building and maintaining a relationship with Cross-grades, upgrades, fair pricing, support; for example, Advanced Orchestra came out last year, completely re-worked for EXS. I bought it. The price was fair and it was a major update. Miroslav Vitous, on the other hand -(which I would probably like to buy too) is an example of a great library which needs a price drop and a reworking IMHO. Dan Dean is very cool, takes care of his customers. Steinberg don't endear themselves to me - The Grand will probably never appear as Audio Unit! VSL are tops in support, and their prices are (mostly) very fair I think.

    End of rant mode.

    Nigel