Hello again,

O.K, it's time to strike back again - pretty late - but I haven't got enough time to write about Zimmers sound. No, I didn't meet Craig Armstrong again. [:)]
Audun, I will answer your question at the end of this reply - otherwise you won't take my observations serious, probably. [[:D]]

Let's begin with instrument positioning: As I noticed on many of his recordings, HZs makes use of very - uncommonly - big brass sections compared to typical symphonic occupations. As for example he used 16 horns, 6 trumpets, 5 trombones and one tuba on "The Peacemaker" score.
You can probably imagine that it is quite impossible to adjust the volume between brass and string sections. And even the size ... how would you position an orchestra like this? Believe me, it's nearly impossible.
So, what are you doing? Yes, you guessed it: Recording the sections individually.
And that's one of the most interesting points regarding music produced by Hans Zimmer. Strings and brass are not recorded at the same time.
Now, how does HZ record the brass section? So far as I know, in symmetrical order. That means that you hear the horns and the other brass instruments coming from both sides. First, I want to describe the left side of the recording room: Beginning with the trumpets outside, the horns between trumpets and trombones and the trombones at the middle of the recording room. On the right side you find the same set up vice versa.
Regarding the "high frequency" trumpets you hear on most of HZs scores, I think there are some explanations for it:
1.) Room,
2.) and most probably "computerized human behaviour". So, what the hell is that? [[:D]]
As we all know, a standard human beeing cannot play an instrument like a computer regarding rhythmic precision. When real humans play together with their instruments, everybody starts playing at different, musically even not noticeable moments. In that moment you can hear somewhat "high frequencies", as I call them.
[:D]
So I think that HZ wants to strengthen that kind of sound by shifting the left and the right side's start notes, after recording them.
Further Hans Zimmer also adds some artificial reverb on every instrument section. Sometimes it sounds like a "simple" Waves TrueVerb (that's my opinion), but to be serious - I think he is using one of the more cheaply reverbs like the TC-system 6000 or even more badly. [[[:|]]]

Sometimes he uses "Flügelhörner" combined with french horns as you can hear them on "The Peacemaker". (Siedlaczek samples would do the job, I guess.)
Furthermore I have the feeling that he also uses the piano in its deep regions for amplifying the bass on some cues.
And don't forget: Hans Zimmer rarely uses the viola section. On "The Last Samurai" he didn't even used them. Therefor you find a bunch of celli. [:)]

Now to Audun: [:P]
I don't know why Craig Armstrong took the time to explain me his way of working.
I also was very surprised by his open-mindedness. I guess he is simply a nice guy. [:)] One of the two girls, I think it was Angelina, told me that I was the first who noticed him.
I can't imagine why ... , but who knows ...? [[[:|]]]

At the moment I'm a hobbyist composer beside some minor commcercials and student films I made. BUT: Be careful: Finally I'm a 18-year-old psychology and composition student from Linz. [H]
Hopefully I have enough time to improve my English capabilities, because today I was in the false mood to write this "guide".
But it was overdue ... [:)]

All the best,
Hans-Peter

Oh, yes - I love smileys - I simply love them. [:)]

Hans Peter
That sounds like a very inspiring time you had - that's great. [:D]

Audun
They have Kwik-e-marts in Norway?

Yes, it was ... Thank you.
Hmm, here in Austria we don't have any of these shops, but maybe I will travel to Springfield in a year or so ... I hope that I will meet the great masters of dealing with life: Abu, Barney, Homer and most importantly: Mr. Burns.
But I have no money ... NO !!! (quotation Homer Simpson)

"Excellent, Smithers" (laughing out to the night) [:)]

Hans not only uses "stacked" real brass and strings, he also likes to layer samples on top of his his recordings (or maybe he justs keeps some mockup tracks). MediaVentures has a lot of proprietary samples from the London Symphony Orchestra, as well as all the regular orchestral libraries. It is not difficult to spot patches from SOV, VOTA and, in his older works, from Mirouslav Vitous.

I like Hans' productions, but I tend to view them as a mix of pop/rock with orchestral tracks, using a pop/rock based multitracking approach. It's completely different from how people like JNH, JW, JG etc, compose and record.

You're completely right. Why MV does make use of 16 Gigas per composer?
Layering ... probably even in a very massive way.
I also think you can't compare Zimmer with other composers, but to be honest:
It depends very on the projects. All of us heard some commercial tunes coming from JNHs hands. Again he did a great job on "Signs" which is one of my favourite movies.
You'll find that at all composers working for high-budget movies.
HZ used that and also formed the hollywood sound to a new direction of filmmusic integrating electronic elements. Maybe you heard also about David Arnold who is one of my most favourite composers. Except the "DAD"-joke, his work on "Changing Lanes" and "Stargate" was simply breathtaking.
But who knows who is the man behind the orchestra? Nicholas Dodd is a possible choice, but maybe it's David Arnold who does the most work of the arrangement.
That's one of those questions, no one will ever get an answer.

I mean: Maybe Bruce Fowler is also responsible for the famous HZ sound?
Nobody knows exactly ... one point is for sure: It's a matter of combination the different aspects every member of the MV has to offer. More likely they should name every soundtrack's composer a team than a single person.
All the same ... [*-)]

Best wishes,
Hans-Peter

@Peter Roos said:

I like Hans' productions, but I tend to view them as a mix of pop/rock with orchestral tracks, using a pop/rock based multitracking approach. It's completely different from how people like JNH, JW, JG etc, compose and record.

Yeah, they actually have to write well in order for it to sound good.

Evan Evans

Evan, [:D]

Seriously, Hans-Peter, that was quite fascinating reading. Which is maybe the most evaluated and representative score using these brass approaches?

I'm testing a TC System 6000. You can easily change a "simple" sampler into a BIG sampler. With it, you save time ... (but you don't save money).

[:P]

Hi Mathis,

First:
Thank you!

Second:
I would say that the most representative score (which uses "massive HZ brass") was done with "Project Peacemaker" or "The Peacemaker" - different titles in the USA and Europe).
Except "The Peacemaker" I also want to add the score of "The Rock", which was only produced by HZ. Of course you find HZ's brass setups in all of his modern scores, except on "The Matchstick Man".
Oh, yes - and don't forget "Gladiator", but have in mind that he made use of different settings on every score. (In Gladiator you hear a lot of real brass - only with a little tweaking.) - Hope that's the right voc for it. [:)]

On inquires, I will post again a short "HZ bass" reply at the end of this week.
Hopefully ... [:D]

Best wishes,
Hans-Peter

Oh yes! TC offers a lot of little cheap systems. [:)]
To be serious ... I'm sure it's an outstanding system, but only suited for people who have a large - a very large budget.
I'm not a member of this group. [8-)]

Best wishes,
Hans-Peter

Oh, before I forget my "little" problem:
Does anybody know great studiomonitors which are suited for serious work and orchestral stuff?
Till yet, I've considered the "Mackie HR824" or the "Mackie HR624".
I don't like the sound of Genelecs, so I thought that would be the best descision.
What do you mean?
Are there better studiomonitors in that price-class out there?
Maybe you can help me ... currently I'm using M-Audio SP-5B.
Here are some demos of my work to give you an impression of what kind of monitors I'm working with:

Here is the link: http://homepage.mac.com/the_maestro2k/FileSharing2.html

It sounds great on the monitors but ... guess ... it doesn't sound great on other speakers.

Thank you!

Hans-Peter

Well, I´m absolutely a fan of Nubert speakers. I work on them for several years now. They´re clean and cheap. But also fun.
You can order them only direct at: www.nubert.de. You have a full four week return garanty if you don´t like them.
I just purchased a pair of Nuwave35 and I´m very happy. Some problems in the high bass range but that´s my room. They´re amazingly flat in their frequency response. Formerly I had boxes from the Nubox series and they don´t resolve the spatial information very well. So, especially for orchestral stuff, I highy recommend the Nuwave series.
And for the bedroom or other computer workstations the smallest Nubox (I think 310) is amazingly fun and very very cheap, too.

Thanks for your HZ listening tips. I´m very curious now.

Very interesting the info on Hans Zimmer.
One thing to mention is that besides producing The Rock he created the main theme.

Hans-Peter, we had a _lot_ of monitoring-related threads in our Mixing and Postproduction Forum. Maybe you find some interesting info there!

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Ok, after a long time of being silent, I overcome myself and start writing again to the forum.
Thank you for the great answers regarding my problem finding the best monitors!
I've found the best monitors I could imagine - when I first heared it, I was absolutely fascinated by its basses and brilliant high frequency performance: The Dynaudio BM6A ...
So, that means collecting money [:)]

Thank you for your help!

Hans-Peter

Ps.: If I have enough time, maybe I will post some new discoveries dealing with the HZ sound.

If you like the bm6a and have money problems, perhaps the bm6 would work for you (a passive monitor, not active). I love mine. You need a decent amp, but perhaps you already have that.

yeah i also noticed that zimmer records his sections separatly, one thing that proves this is the Gladiator DVD. When you extract only the surround channel, a magical thing happens : you hear of course the sound effects but also only the strings

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/bhorde.mp3

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/extrait-thebattle-surround.mp3

Wow, that's crazy. I was listening to the soundtrack the other day and I thought the brass sounded a few milliseconds off from the strings, but I thought I was just hearing things. His strings sound really good, too. Carter, do you know what kind of strings he uses for those?

Interesting discussion.

I've followed off and on the HZ sound and I've noticed that it seems very diffuse. All those layers can fool me into this false sense of "bigness" but really I believe that there is a point of diminishing returns where the sound becomes smaller and without focus or character.

Comparing Gladiator to another similar style soundtrack from 25 years ago (or even a recording of the Holst) tells me that even though I can hear that there is only three trumpets (let's pretend for an example) the intensity is so different; more raw and visceral.

When I put headphones on I hear a huge blended string section layered with string samples and even synth strings, creating a giant pad that almost sucks the sense of space and articulation away from the music. Don't get me wrong, it is a cool sound and when it is appropriate it is awesome. But this process can be self-defeating if one is not aware of the sonic consequences of all these layers.

I liken it to watching a Jerry Bruckheimer film. Very grand but also very affected, so if you were to do quick A/B comparisons you could see (or hear) how one is not as realistic (or accomplished) a presentation as one would imagine without a reality check.

Clark