Computer Instrumentation the same like real world orchestra?

[mathis]

I wonder when I learn instrumentation by experimenting with sampled orchestras like VSL, will the "real world" be different? Means if I´m orchestrating a piece on base of my experience with VSL, will the sound of a real orchestra really match? Or will I be surprised by certain details?

Maybe the other way round as a question for the people coming from the other direction: What things changed in your orchestration when you started orchestrating with VSL after learning it with real orchestras?

Thanks,
- Mathis

[PaulR]

Interesting question.

Firstly, are you learning orchestration now (through VSL) or have you studied orchestration conventionally (i.e. at music college)?

Will there be differences between a 'real' orchestra and VSL? Of course there will. When you write parts on a computer for example and hear them back, you may have written a part say, for violin that in the real world is unplayable. Or brass parts that in the real world could mean the horn players run out of breath 5 seconds before you want them to. Basis stuff like that.
At this point in time of the available technology, provided you've written a playable orchestral piece, the real orchestra is going to sound better for all sorts of reasons. Of course it is.

Orchestration learning at college and school level has changed over the years because of technology. A good and bad thing actually. Good, because it gets people interested through the use of being able to experiment with computers and sample libs: bad, because it makes us lazy and attracts computer geeks that clog the place up with techno-speak.

We're a long way off sounding like a real orchestra, although as I've mentioned before, technology moves forwards and 5 years down the road who knows what will be achievable on a computer. Some great stuff already on this forum in the Demo section.

As a side bar, when you go to a live orchestral concert, it never sounds like a recording of that same orchestra on a CD. When an orchestra goes into a recording studio, it may record a passage over and over again, and then different parts are spliced together to try and get that perfect passage. Thats one of the reasons why purists like older recordings or live ones, for example. The studios didn't have the technology they have today and its more a case of 'what you see, is what you get'. Even the live ones are rejigged. I'm not necessarily a purist btw.

Don't get me wrong, computers and VSL and their use of, is fantastic compared to say, years ago. William, on another thread on this part of the forum makes the good point about real orchestras and their subsequent monetary cost. At the moment, in my view, computers and sample libraries will always be a compromise between what sounds 'real' as you put it versus cost. Btw, what is real? Ask the audience that have just come out of a cinema if they thought the filmscore was a real orchestra or VSL on a computer. They wouldn't know and they wouldn't care. If it works, it works.

If, in your case, you are using VSL as your orchestral template for both sound and orchestration and subsequently taking it into a real orchestra situation, you will find its worth its weight in gold.

I guarantee you will get more responses to your question.

[evan evans]

I am very experienced with both.

If you learn on computer/synth you will be only about t50% there. I have weighed a lot of factors here, so when I say 50% I mean 5% more than 45%. I am not just shooting off an arbitrary number. 50% is pretty good. It's something to be proud of. You could be as good as Klaus Badelt or any other semi-professional "real" orchestral composer. And of course if you got such a gig an d had to do your own orchestrations and were capable but had no real world experience, like I say it would come out good, semi-pro, fine for the job at hand, but the real beauty is that next time hopefully you'll be closer to 55% or 60% and improving.

Also, once you've had a round of real world experience your virtual orchestrations will improve and you will have a kind of sensory memory coupled with the real world experience that will aid you in imagining the real musicians playing the virtual music so that the virtual music is closer to what's possible.

There are quite a few real world physical limitations that are hard to understand wholly in the virtual world.

You may always ask me questions on my website and I'd be glad to answer for the benefit of yourself and all composers who read the board:
http://www.evanevans.org

TIP: a 4 note chord played on synth violins (14 players) is a total of 56 violins. Always spread a chord across the strings such that the most important harmonic content is fortified with the most players but keeping in mind that there is never more players available than the typical 28 violins, 20 Violas, 12 Cellos, and 8 Basses in real life!

Evan Evans

[Peter Roos]

that's a large number of violas compared to a total of violins 1 & 2 [;)]

[William]

This is a great question and something I've thought about from the opposite point of view.

I started as an old-fashioned orchestrator/player when there was no such thing as a sampler. I learned the most basic way possible - by playing in the same bands and orchestras that played my music. So I had the experience - sometimes disturbing - of hearing things I wrote played by both mediocre and good players, and that made me try to write things that were "solid" - in other words, practical to play, suited to the technique of the instrument, etc. so that it would sound o.k. even if the orchestra wasn't so great.

That's probably the main advantage with learning the traditional way - you will be more aware of problems you create in your use of the instruments.

However, this is something that startled me when I started using samples that were really good - Miraslav and others and then the VSL - everything you do in orchestrating with samples is applicable to live orchestras. It is a tremendous tool not only for recording music, but for learning about orchestration. Also, I've had the same pieces played by samples and live orchestras, and though this contradicts Paul somewhat, I've found it is not true that the live always sounds better. If you have the New York Philharmonic, it probably will. But if you have the Gardnerville Symphony or the Peyoche Chamber Players - don't count on it.

[PaulR]

[quote=William] If you have the New York Philharmonic, it probably will. /quote]

Yes of course. [:)] This is what I meant.

[dpcon]

There are many permutations it seems when figuring the different elements that contribute to understanding orchestral writing and orchestrating.

As we've seen here, various experiences tend to mold various approaches. No doubt someone who has played in any orchestral section is going to be influenced by that and on many levels. A violinist will write with a keen understanding of the instrument and probably with the same ratio of violins playing or not playing as he is accustomed to. Or he may deliberately try and do something he was never asked to do musically as an experiment and pull it off because of his understanding of the instrument and orchestra.

The question seems to be: what common principals of this craft can no one do without? The reason scores are studied so often is that we are looking for common denominators that remain no matter the style, or time of the piece. If one comes to the conclusion the bass and celli work well at the octave in a supportive or melodic role, you will have an element that is absolutely going to work when handled similarly. If one gains an understanding (even with no "experience") of all the reliable principals (such as breathing room for all "wind" instruments) that have proven themselves over time, the foundation to go on into experience will be there.

The combination of an understanding of real life orchestration and use of samples to learn and realize one's own ideas (informed by this understanding) will be most helpful in this endless journey of music and it's myriad of elements.

Dave Connor

[mathis]

Thanks, guys, for the answers up to now.
Do I understand right, that the combination of both might be the king?
I´m beginning with orchestral arranging and the initial feedback by realising it with sampled orchestra was tremendous. (I was doing that: www.audionomio.de/mp3/OrchestralDramaNr1_Mix3.mp3 , unfortunatly not vsl yet)
For example I learned immediatly that it makes absolutely no sense to put a bassoon melodie behind three roaring trombones and other obvious things like that. But they weren´t "obvious" before I was listening to the result. This process is going much much faster sampled-based instead fo waiting for a hunted rehearsal.
So one refinement of my initial question is: If I experience things like that in virtual orchestras, will it be the same in a real orchestra? (Another example would be that I found out that a flute played in highest region will never sound soft, regardless, how soft it was played or how soft it is mixed.)

A point I really understand is the writing *for* the instrument. Means that a part is "suited to the technique of the instrument". For this I see now the necessity to work with real players. To be curious to them.

Regarding the quality of real orchestras: I experienced so many bad perfomances of students compositions that I never would trust the results...

Do you agree to that as a good orchestration learning mentality?

[dpcon]

mathis,

You really can't go wrong if you continue to have your own insights based upon working with samples AND familiarizing yourself with the the classical orchestral reptoire (or whatever ensemble you favor writing for.) Having a sample library is a bit like having a bunch of wood and nails and wanting to build things. Nothing wrong with your own creations but looking at the blueprints of proven masters will save you some trial and error.

I agree with you about the feedback working with samples provide. It's true that it can be a very effective way of "hearing" your ideas and if they're working. Often times you will discover musical weaknesses regardless of the orchestration and vice versa. A good orchestration book (or two or three) will help on balance between instruments (referring to your bassoon and flute observations.)

You seem to possess the most important qualities to learn already: curiosity, enthusiasm, and determination. They will serve you well.

Cheers,

Dave

[mathis]

Hi Dave,

yes, I have the several orchestration books but as long as I have no haptic experience they don´t speak to me. I finished another piece (http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/OrchestralDramaNr2_Mix4.mp3">http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/OrchestralDramaNr2_Mix4.mp3) which is already far far better, but not up to now I realized why doubled or tripled winds is used. I mean I knew that it is used but I had to face myself the situation that I need them.
Same with studying scores. Now, after my first trial runs I know exactly where to look in a score and it speaks much more to me.
So hopefully my VSL is arriving soon and I can continue doing orchestral dramas. Maybe after the 100ths it´s becoming good... [[:|]]
(but I have to admit I really like my last piece [:O]ops: I will do a new instrumentation with more winds and brass and then let´s see....)

Bests,
- mathis

[evan evans]

@Peter Roos said:

that's a large number of violas compared to a total of violins 1 & 2 [;)]

Oops. Meant 34(18/16)-16-12-8

[evan evans]

Mathis,

Cool track. Love your style.

I'd like to have a session with you on taking you to the next level. Orchestration, harmony, practices of mastery, etc.

Where are you located?

I am thinking somewhere between a 2 hour and an 8 hour intensive session where you learn it all!!!

Contact me if you are interested, by email for starters.

[:D]

Evan Evans

[dpcon]

mathis,

I just listened to you piece as well. Very good. You are very talented. Just keep going and learning. If you find a texture in a score (for example woodwinds or brass in a Ravel piece) try using the structure (the way the instruments are used in vertical and horizontal relationship) and use your own melody and harmony. I think you will get a more authentic and bigger sound (VSL will help with this as well.) If it's too big or too orchestrated for what you want then just pull some things out.

A philosophical point: Since you already know what you know and have your own gifts in music, consider that you want to know what other composers know. This will only strengthen your abilities and make you more diverse. It will also help you execute your own ideas more perfectly.

Evan may be able to provide numerous helpful incites at this time. Private study is the launching pad for most artists.

Again, I enjoyed your music and original ideas,

Dave Connor

[Fred Story]

Ditto on Dave's remarks. I studied composition privately with Ziggy Hurwitz for seven years. I remember during one of my lessons I was grumbling about having to analyze some work or the other, and Ziggy looked at me and said...

"You want to be a great composer, right?"

"Umm, yeah...", I replied.

"Then tell me. How can you be a great composer unless you understand what the great composers did?"

I never grumbled again. Well...about THAT, at least.

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design
www.concentrixmusic.com

[mathis]

Oh, man, this is not nice. I get logged off for no reason and so my carefully written post is gone.
I´ll try once again.


Dear Evan, Dave and Fred,

thank you very much for your kind words. I appreciate your attention very much. It does help me growing.
I already answered Evan to his very kind offer. But unfortunatly I´m currently located in The Hague, Netherlands, where I follow/continue/finish my composition study (so I´m not stubborn on myself). Visiting Evan is a bit far away for now, but this may change.

Dave, your idea sounds very good, I will apply it on the next piece.

Thanks again for your feedback and please stay tuned,
- Mathis [:D]

[mathis]

So my Opus1 arrived and as an exercise I made a short Hobo solo piece:
http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/HoboSolo_Mix1.mp3">http://www.audionomio.de/mp3/HoboSolo_Mix1.mp3

I have to say that I´m very pleased with the result. In the beginning it was quite a "Gfreckl", it seemed fussy, but in the end it was easier than I thought.
Enjoy the "dirt track" I added to it [H] .

Coming back to my original question of this thread, it seems that I´m quite influenced by the sources a library provides. For example in the earlier pieces I used much staccato, because it simply sounded so much more authentic than the legato things.
In this piece my perfomance was very much influenced by the tempi of the dynamic samples, pfp. So it seems not to be entirely free, what one can do with such a library.
What are your experiences regarding influence of library?

I also have to say that I like the virtuosic liberty with such a library. I`m not sure, but I guess a real hobo player would puke when he saw that flattertongue glissando on the highest g. [:P]

Please tell me what you think,
best regards,
- Mathis

[mathis]

This is ridiculous! [:O]ops:

I really like´d to know why I constantly mix up things. For some reason I was completely convinced that an Oboe is a hobo in english.... [8-)]
So, but what is a Hobo? [*-)]: Here´s the answer:
http://www.hobo.com/what_is.htm">http://www.hobo.com/what_is.htm

Anyway a nice title for the piece... [:D]


(I always wanted to use all these emoticons!) [:P]

[evan evans]

Oh my goodness. I was like, this is a great oboe solo. I thought it was goin got be some kind of wierd clown piece of music!

lol.

Was this real oboe or VSL? I was utterly convinced.

[:)]

Evan Evans

[William]

Mathis

This is a great job, with the phrasing and breaths - probably should be one of the regular demos for its total realism.

BTW did you really get a homeless guy to do this? That's nice of you. I hope you paid him more than just beer.

[mathis]

Thanks guys, very much appreciated!
The hobo was accurately filled up with lots of whisky for the rest of the week and left the house with a kind of green face.... [+o(]

@Another User said:

- probably should be one of the regular demos for its total realism.

Herb and Co is very welcome to do this.

Bests and thanks for listening,
- Mathis