I find it amusing that people are under orders to keep quiet about a sample library. What's the punishment? Flogging? Or maybe they'll take away your computers? (That would be worse.)

Right there is a major difference - ever since the beginning everyone has been encouraged by the VSL company to talk (sometimes to the point of obsession) about the library. It has nothing to hide. Again, that is this company's emphasis upon music and composing rather than business. Though they are obviously doing both well.

Also, my reaction is the same as Dietz and Iwan - I heard the demos and saw their listings on EW and it is like an old-fashioned sample library with single note/articulation samples - just more of them than Miroslav or Siedlaczek or what have you. There is no emphasis on the absolutely crucial difference that the VSL has - performance elements incorporated at the most basic level. That is why I immediately lost interest in the EW library. Also, the ambiance of the concert hall is no better than convolution reverb (at least the one I'm using - Acoustic Mirror) and has none of the radical flexibility of being able to change the entire nature of the sounding space. So that is a non-feature for me on the EW library. I wouldn't use it anyway.

Though if you're just looking to expand your raw number of samples, it's always good to get more, especially if you're a millionaire.

P.S. King - could you spare me a couple bucks? I'm kind of tapped out after buying the First Edition.

@William said:

I find it amusing that people are under orders to keep quiet about a sample library.

With software, a beta tester is a kind of "second engineer" who is participating in the R&D of a product. While developing that library, or software program, you're under non-disclosure until the final product is released and on the market. And those non-disclosure terms vary from one company to the next. There are also written agreements that the OEM may require signing before work begins. In this case, the beta tester has a contractual obligation to say nothing.

At this level, beta testing has nothing to do with national security, but it has everything to do with corporate security. Millions are being invested in these libraries. And a beta tester, whether under written contract or personal guarantee, is there to help make the library a success, not to sink it.

Additionally, beta testers come with all levels of background.

On our LA team for VSL, half the team was balanced with programmers/instrumentalists/composers who could read music, and knew the orchestral literature. The other half were composers who were under deadline and knew little about programming, and so needed to rely on the final result without being pushed to have to know how to work the GS Edit.

Was it that they weren't smart enough to figure out GS Edit or to lazy to do it (as some have suggested)? No, it's that a large part of professional composers who use these libraries put their emphasis on music and composition first and bring in a tech to help with the rest.

And so half our team represented that market position.

Another consideration was that everyone on our LA team had scoring stage experience and knew what it meant to be under fire and to get the job done. Anyone of the team who was a programmer, understood how to program under those conditions. We didn't look for what would be "cool" but what would be effective for the library under "on demand" expectations.

Additionally, the kind of projects our team did varied greatly. They ranged from weekly TV to Warner Bros. cartoons, to Biblical epics. And so the library was tested at a variety of levels.

However, our input was directed to THE team leader - Herb. Herb is a concert cellist with plenty of onstage experience. He's a composer and a programmer. So when Herb first presented his vision to us, we knew what he was trying to accomplish and how to support him in it. When we didn't understand, we wrote and asked questions.

Do I as one of the beta testers really need to comment on it? In VSL's case, no, not really. The primary demos are done by Herb, the Captain of the ship. The Captain has taken prime responsibility for the success of the mission. And the Captain has executed that responsibility by creating demos that show off the individual instruments, individual ensemble groups, etc., so you can clearly hear for yourself what the library is capable of doing.

Finally, I want to make this point, which several of us on our team have spoken about individually. Many of us because of expertise at a variety of levels, are asked to beta test other libraries. It's therefore necessary for we as individuals to maintain some level of confidentiality, especially on a public forum. We call this trust.

In the end, however, a beta tester in music is akin to the composer creating for the director. We work to support a vision that has capital investment behind it. Our duty and our job is to support that vision and as best as possible make it successful.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the library stands on its strength.

Two weeks ago, my wife Caroline and I were coming home from church one evening. On the classical station was a piece by Mozart written for flute, solo violin and solo cello. In listening, we both realized (Caroline's an excellent composer, too) what a great blessing it was to have a library like VSL where if we wanted, we could create our own works for flute, solo violin and solo cello because of the broad level of articulations available to us from one library which also sounds fantastic!

So, William, please don't take this as any kind of assault on your post. I appreciated all your good words. But because this theme has come up on two different forums, I wanted to clearly set forth the philosophy that many us have who help contribute to wonderful libraries like VSL.

Peter,

I don't like your attitude. It is conceited and superior. I don't appreciate being treated like an ignoramus to be enlightened. I may not have your important salaried position in a big company but I'm a serious composer, and what I wrote is my honest reaction to corporate bullshit.

William

@William said:

Peter,

I don't like your attitude. It is conceited and superior. I don't appreciate being treated like an ignoramus to be enlightened. I may not have your important salaried position in a big company but I'm a serious composer, and what I wrote is my honest reaction to corporate bullshit.

William

OK.BTW I don't have a "salaried position" in a big company. I run my own company, Alexander University Inc., of which Truespec Systems is a division, along with Alexander Publishing, our training division, and Biblestory.NET, our production arm, for whom I produce and compose original works. Our first major work is David & Goliath Episode 1, Revenge of The Fallen Ones which releases in 2004, follow by Mary & Joseph: The Untold Story, and many others.

I'm also a serious composer who's also revised the Rimsky-Korsakov book, Gradus ad parnassum by Fux (called Counterpoint by Fux), written a harmony series (Applied Professional Harmony). prepared a three-semester writing for strings course, and more than 50 other works.

I'm both fortunate and blessed that God allowed me to have a career in advertising and business before coming back to music (Berklee 1975) because this and His grace has allowed me to sustain myself while coming back from being re-paralyzed from a condition called post-polio syndrome, during which time I've had to learn to walk again, hold a pencil again to write music, play piano again, all from scratch. To get back to where I am required serious work and conquering pain levels I can barely begin to describe.

I am neither conceited nor superior but I am goal oriented, direct, to the point and competent in what I do. I am also loyal, supportive and a good friend. I operate between crutches and a whellchair. I do not quit and I play to win. I don't complain. I get the job done.

If that makes me appear superior and conceited, my humble apologies.

I just want to jump in to describe how VSL handles beta testing and NDA issues.

After releasing our First Edition the beta testers asked me what they are allowed to communicate to the public now. To be honest, I was surprised about this question, now I understand it a little bit better. It seems that different companies handle this in different ways.

I told our betateam that they should simply share their thoughts - without any restriction, that's all.

best wishes
Herb

been following this interesting post keenly. mostly 'cause of the possible horror at hearing about another epic orchestral library on the blocks. what if i got the wrong library? wel - downloaded the demos and was kinda relieved to hear the same as pete alexander. sounds like great samples doing an imitation of an orchestra but in the right hands, the VSL really can sound make u think twice about whether you're hearing a real orchestra or not.

VSL clearly has the most insane choices in their programs which right now is currently giving me headaches in terms of constructing music. however, logic dictates that it has to be this way - we're talking about instruments that can be articulated in a ridiculously different amount of ways - even the VSL has had to be selective in what it chooses to include. computers have no way of assessing our intention of a note at any particular point. however - this performance tool is potentially a monumental step forward in being to articulate realistic performances short of bringing in a real life orchestra.


i also agree about the ambience and feel that MIR will certainly make a big difference, although that's not to say there aren't other reverbs out there that couldn't do the trick - that's just academic. the real meat and potatoes is the library itself which - early frustrations aside - i'm convinced the VSL is definite way forward. i've already had quite a few WOW moments with the VSL which usually u only get once or twice with any other product - usually on first listen, and i'm sure i'll be experiencing more in time to come.


ironically after a rather petulant outburst in another forum, i gotta say that these VSL guys are among the most supportive team towards their users which you only appreciate when having had to deal with the lobotomised monkeys that run steinberg and to some extent emagic - dissapointing. you definitely get the impression that this is slightly more than just a business venture to them, for which i'm grateful. i also believe, although not immediately evident sometimes, the openness of the VSL team and ease with which you can communicate with them has to come into consideration when choosing which company to make ur home with.

best regards,

michael

Herb's reply in this post is one of the MANY reasons that I LOVE THIS ORGANIZATION! I appreciate the fact that VSL is like a living organism-it keeps on growing! Words that come to mind using this library...PASSION, AUTHENTICITY, EXCELLENCE. When I use the VSL I feel like a snob ( and I will admit...I kinda' like that feeling)!

Richard

As a guy who is a freelance composer, If i ever wantd to work for a company soley, this would be the one. My dealings with Herb and the rest of the team are the best I have ever dealt with. Great organzation, great people, dedicated people.

As someone who at the beginning, after receiving VSL first edition, wrote quite critically in this forum, I would like to make a little statement: I find the way the VSL team, with Herb in front works is really great. Even the furious reaction from Herb was very positive to me and I am not surprised at all that the Beta testers can say and write what ever they want.

I think the problem is that Sampling libraries are international and sold worldwide. Also at the forum we are from different countries, different backgrounds and have different mentalities. For example: to me it is very strange that Peter Alexander uses the forum to make propaganda for his company and for himself, but I do guess that for him this is normal. Aggressive propaganda and the opposite = taboos are accepted in the USA and less in old Europe. Curious but true.

But after all, we should try to stay objective, talk about a sample library, help each other and put our little egos and ambitions in the background. Or maybe not
[*-)]:
Sorry about this little opera, but I am probably the oldest fool on this forum, so I thought….


Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Hello, Iwan.

For me, propaganda means Nikita Kruschev banging his shoe on the UN table saying they (the Russians) will bury us (the Americans). But I think I understand the way you're using the word.

Peter

Just a plug for the VSL gang.... I've blown so much money on sample libraries in an attempt to find authentic-sounding samples, and I've finally found it with the VSL. And when I've had trouble achieving the kind of sound that some of the user-demos on the site achieve, because i'm not very savvy about effects & EQ'ing and that sort of thing, I've had the wonderful experience of other users offering their advice and secret recipes for how they achieved a particular sound. It's not propaganda, I think this board is just full of REALLY satisfied users who, after years of trying out products that didn't quite pass the test, finally feel like they got their money's worth.

OK, enough banter... I'm going to go play with my pizzicato cello now.

Kerry [:D]

I have wandered in to this debate in the middle, but i am somewhat saddened -

I have been a memeber of various forums, - logic users etc, and left them because of the constant bitching between members which is not productive in the process of producing music.

I for one am not really interested to know how the word propoganda is used or meant, or even who is talking down to whom -

I want to understand how to make better music with the VSL as one of my major tools.

Maybe an Off topic section is required if this kind of banter is going to continue...

Sorry to rant, but the EXS section of this forum has been so positive and helpful, i really don't want to see another slanging forum....

With hope

David Tobin

By reading the three last posts I do think that my own writing was misunderstood, maybe because of my poor English. I do not want to critic Peter Alexander, but just to write that sometimes we are just different, that’s all. When I see a post which obviously is not of interest to me I normally just skip it, and it does not even irritate me. This was only an example to actually illustrate why I do like the business philosophy of VSL so much open, honest and dedicated. I also do not want to generalize my comments to all Americans, but there is a fact that in this country it is common on TV to put another product (calling it by name) down in order to advertise for yours –I was 19 times in the USA and sometime did stay for as long a three month. I also (in Europe) never heard of being under a contract which forbids you to emit your opinions, or risking legal problems. I did work for Yamaha Corporation for several years and never anybody told me what I should say and not say. I would never agree with anything like this anyway.

And I do also not intend to open a polemic about this. It does not disturb me at all if PA uses the forum to advertise – sorry about the word propaganda Peter - for his company, is just that it is kind of strange to me. This is really my problem not his. Before putting my homepage address for the first time under a post of this forum, I did ask to VSL if this was OK. And this is not propaganda,….. publicity sorry [[;)]], but just to make readers know who I am and take responsibility for my writings.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

EWQLSO

@Another User said:

sounds like great samples doing an imitation of an orchestra but in the right hands, the VSL really can sound make u think twice about whether you're hearing a real orchestra or not.

I own both libraries and have been making an effort to be unbiased about them (which has been hard) but I will share one little antecdote now that I've worked with both.
There is a musician who listens to all of my work when I'm done with various pieces. This person was unaware that I was using a new sample library on a new piece I had just finished (I guess this is kind of like the "Folger's Taste Test" for those who know what that is..."We secretly switched this coffee...") After listening to the piece that used solely EWQLSO, the reaction was first silence then "It sounds good, but it doesn't sound as realistic as it usually does. It's not as convincing."

Admitedly this is just one person's reaction to one piece that I wrote, but I thought it might be interesting to share.

@slaroussels said:

"It sounds good, but it doesn't sound as realistic as it usually does. It's not as convincing."

Slaroussels,

Now that we are backe to the subject:....: This statement makes 100 % sense to me. I mean -IMHO- QLSO sounds good but in no way real! It sounds like Hollywood cinema theater music and this is not real at all for someone who was at least once in a concert hearing a sinfony orchestra or did listen to a CD of a classical music.

Iwan
http://iwanroth-sax.com

@Iwan Roth said:

Before putting my homepage address for the first time under a post of this forum, I did ask to VSL if this was OK. And this is not propaganda,….. publicity sorry [[;)]], but just to make readers know who I am and take responsibility for my writings.

Iwan
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

Iwan, like Herb, you're a gentleman. (a compliment in the US). The way we sign our names is set forth in an agreement called Netiquette (after etiquette).

Your Name
Your E-Mail Address
Your Web Address(es)
Your Phone Number (optional)
Your Mail Address (optional)

In your e-mail program, this is often labeled your "signature."

I'm glad to see some VSL owners who have the QLSO speaking up.

@herb said:

I just want to jump in to describe how VSL handles beta testing and NDA issues.

After releasing our First Edition the beta testers asked me what they are allowed to communicate to the public now. To be honest, I was surprised about this question, now I understand it a little bit better. It seems that different companies handle this in different ways.

I told our betateam that they should simply share their thoughts - without any restriction, that's all.

best wishes
Herb

As a follow up to this, Herb actually REVERSED the NDA agreement we were all required to sign. Basically, it was, "I don't care what you signed, I'm the President, and you can say what you want.." End of story.

What a guy!

@Another User said:

...Herb actually REVERSED the NDA agreement

peter, IIRC this was _after_ the library has been released and the question came up, if the NDA would still apply. and exactly this is the point i don't understand - if a product is released everybody can buy it, try it and share his opinion, but not the beta-testers? - hmm ....
imho during the beta or testing period a NDA makes much sense, because it can be decided to not release certain parts/functions/ect so talking publically about it could be very contraproductive
you know, just my two bit, christian

@Another User said:

...Herb actually REVERSED the NDA agreement

peter, IIRC this was _after_ the library has been released and the question came up, if the NDA would still apply. and exactly this is the point i don't understand - if a product is released everybody can buy it, try it and share his opinion, but not the beta-testers? - hmm ....
imho during the beta or testing period a NDA makes much sense, because it can be decided to not release certain parts/functions/ect so talking publically about it could be very contraproductive
you know, just my two bit, christian

1. Where you been? Is your e-mail not working?

2. What's IIRC?

3. FYI, there were actually two beta agreements sent to us. The first one was VERY legal and I knew that no one on our team would agree to it, especially being under the laws of Austria!. So I asked Martin to revise it.

The second draft we all agreed to, but not having read it in a while, I don't remember all the wording. I just remember being very surprised when Herb posted that we were free to say what we wanted. You'd have to read both.

4. Keep in mind that until we actually get the final version, we don't know what part of our advice or suggestions are used. Most of us in the US didn't get the final version of the First Edition until nearly Spring (late February/early March I believe). Almost no one on the beta team here in the US now even has the Pro Edition. So how can we really talk about it or do demos when most don't even have it?

If the beta team's comments are that important, we should be among the first to see the final versions. Otherwise, we're literally reading what everyone else who owns it is saying until we finally get it!

Peter