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  3. Perf. Tool Tricks

  • Perf. Tool Tricks

    T
    T
    Hi all,
    just looking arround in the EXS24-section, I noticed that one logic/EXS user figured out to use the current available Perf.Tool (Giga) with EXS using virtual midi-junctions.
    Herb told me in an e-mail, that it should also be possible, to use the Perf.Tool with Cubase SX and HALion - now I played arround some houres with mable and midi-Yoke trying to find the right connections - doesn't work......
    Am I that stupid ??? [:O]ops: [:D]
    Does somebody has any ideas ??
  • H
    H
    Hello Theiss,

    if it is possible to root the mididatas out of cubase through our tool and then back to Halion it is possible to use it.

    I personally don't know how to setup this configuration. (if it is possible)

    best wishes
    Herb
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    theiss, you're referring to the two excellent posts of roman beilharz?
    i had to read them more than one time to get the complete picture of his setup. after discussing that with a guy from our mapping-team i think the secret is, he uses input from keyboard and made a sort of *virtual batch-bay* to switch channels, because logic/EXS will only accept one channel for use with the perf-tool between midi-source and EXS
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • K
    K
    I've done it with Kontakt and Cubase SX

    You need to have two Virtual MIDI cables setup like Marble Ports or Hubi's Loop back

    You have Cubase respond on one channel to your Keyboard input (make sure its not all inputs, be sure its specific to your Keyboard input)

    have that track output to a virtual MIDI cable, have the perf tool respond to the same V-Midi cable's output (by selecting it in the input menu), then select the second V-Midi cable in the perf tool's output menu.

    In Cubase, open a second track, record enable it, and set it to recieve input from the second V-Midi cable, have that track output to Halion/Kontakt...whatever [:)]

    Should work. Only issue it to remember to keep both tracks record enabled when you want to play in realtime.
  • T
    T
    Hi King,
    just a few minutes ago I tried it out.................. [;)]

    YES, YES, YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSS - IT WORKS !!!!!!!
    It works with my cute little HAL 2 !!!!!!!
    YEEEEEHHAAAAAAA
    Ladies & Gentlemen - let's do some cool 'n smooth legato-performing.
    King - you made me the happiest man on earth right now [:)]
    Thank you so much !
    Greetings,
    Sebastian
  • K
    K
    [[:)]]

    well, remember here you're limited to the amount ofperformance tool channels you can have running.

    Not to mention the amount of Virtual MIDI cables you can have running, and the messy Sequencer look (tho you can link tracks and it should be easy to control)

    It should be fine for 16 channels, and maybe 32 if you have enough VM cables. Using MIDI overlan you should be able to echo the outs back to the inputs, that might be a route worth looking into.

    What I'd like to see is a MFX version of all these MIDI tools [[:)]]
  • M
    M
    last edited
    last edited

    @KingIdiot said:

    [[[:)]]]
    What I'd like to see is a MFX version of all these MIDI tools [[[:)]]]


    Ah...didn't I just hear one more vote for an MFX?? [[[:)]]]

    /Mattias
  • R
    R
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    i think the secret is, he uses input from keyboard and made a sort of *virtual batch-bay* to switch channels, because logic/EXS will only accept one channel for use with the perf-tool between midi-source and EXS


    Hi Christian,

    virtual patchbay is correct, but I am switching PORTS, not channels. This way (as suggested here: http://235.deatech.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=557">http://235.deatech.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=557) I am just able to toggle my MIDI-routing rather than having to record enable two tracks like King suggested, which of course works with Logic, too, but is not prone as comfortable to use. It should furthermore be possible to insert the perf-tool-processing AFTER the sequencer and BEFORE any plug-in-softsampler using another cabling-concept within Logic. I will keep you informed if this works out well (I personally like pre-processing, because all my recordings are "fixed" then and I don't have to load any tool-settings before playback).

    Today I will check HALion 2.0 and its Giga-Import, because the virtual channel-switching, I have implemented into my Logic-environment as well (I think you remembered this, Christian?) to be able to play the perf.legatos with more than one dynamic-layer in real-time, doesn't work with EXS24. As you mentioned, this brother is neither multitimbral (multimode-capable) nor does a virtual cable-switching to distribute articulations between EXS24-instances work, because Logic allows ONLY THE LAST SELECTED VI (regardless of being an emagic-VI or any other VSTi) to be played in real-time. HALion will most probably provide the necessary multimode and its giga-import seems almost perfect when importing legato-performances at least (multi-layer-xfades still are not always converted properly - unfortunately).

    All the best

    Roman
  • K
    K
    What I've found in Kontakt is that multi matrix dimensions splits dont convert properly, but "single controller" splits convert very nicely. I haven't tried full testing yet, but I was able to convert a eprformance tool program with little/no problem. Knowing that multi matrix splits dont work and maybe "layers" willl amke it easy for me to conver to Kontakt with minimal "tweaking" after conversion.

    Anywah, Nice post there Roman. Just shows you there are multiple ways to go about it. I like having the two track record enabled option for rendering offline purposes. Without it the MIDI stream moves ouside of the VST realm and wont get rendered.
  • T
    T
    Hi King,
    I mentioned that a few keys outside of the playing range have a funny little effect on how you play the performance (for the demo-cello-ensemble for example it's C3).
    Press and hold this key: The starter note will play till it's end (even if you release the starter note's key..), or, till you go on to a target note. There's the same - it will play till it's end, or till you go on........
    Is this a "normal" feature of the perf.tool, or a strange HAL behaviour ? (it makes playing much more easier, cause you don't have to worry about the treshhold stuff. If you want to end a note while it's playing, just release this key.....
    Without pressing this key, it's the normal stuff: A note only plays aslong as you press the key.
    Greetings,
    Sebastian
  • T
    T
    Oooooops [:O]ops: [:D]
    just mentioned - it's the same thing as like to press n' hold the starter-note - as I know, that's a normal feature of the tool.
    hihi
    [I] [H]
  • R
    R
    Bad news:

    the cabling version to process MIDI BEFORE the VI doesn't work within Logic, because as I should have known, Logic is only capable of rendering a DIRECTLY selected VI in real-time and the plan I had, to record to a substitution-Logic-instrument to send through Perf.-Tool and then cable the backward loop to the object of the VI... Anyway: doesn't work this way. We have to live with recording processed MIDI, I guess.

    A second thing with HALion: It converted the VSL-legatos nicely - although using CDXtract4 made it much more comfortable to convert programs and samples into separate folders - , but I couldn't get HALion to playback any Program, that was NOT assigned to CH. 1. I tried Chainer as VST-host to verify that it is not Logic 5.5.1., that has a problem with HAL and couldn't get any other CH. to play except no.1 either. Headache!

    ....

    Best

    Roman
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    thanks roman for checking that out! we have also tried it in different ways - without any success to break up the chain between logic and exs resp. filter in a virtual midi-port
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • R
    R
    Guys,

    well, sorry if I have been hijacking this topic, but I think this might be interesting for some of you. Why I tried other softsamplers than EXS24 is, because EXS is not yet multi-mode-capable. As I want to be able to play perf.-leg's with velocity-switches dynamically, I searched for a way to be able to split MIDI-data by velocity to succeeding MIDI-channels (e.g. Ch.1: p, Ch.2: mf, Ch.3: f).

    1. Logic+HALion+VSL:
    First I solved the HALion-multi-channel-problem by deinstalling/reinstalling HALion (isn't life stupid sometimes?). Still no way to get multiple out's though, since Logic doesn't recognize and list HALion 2.0 under "Multi-Out".

    Now as I said, except some multi-layer-crossfade-patches all VSL-patches I tried play fine on HALion 2.0 and as intended (used CDXtract 4.1.2 for all conversions: it's a MUST for anyone willing to encounter a VSL-Giga-import). Unfortunately for the Perf.-legatos HALion behaves different from Gigastudio when keyswitches are being used:
    Obviously all non-mapped and non-keyswitching notes cause HAL to play NO MAP AT ALL. I realized, that the Perf.-Tool is rarely sending a C-2 (when does it do this and why - anyone?), and since keyswitches are starting with C#-2 this causes HAL to stop responding to incoming notes - very irritating. I set up a filter-object before the Perf.-Tool-data is getting sent to the Sequencer-Input (Logic-environment, of course [;)] ) and it worked fine then. Using my special Logic-environment to alter MIDI-channels by velocity, I was able to play the desired dynamic VSL-legatos.

    2. Logic+Kontakt+VSL
    CDXtract converted all VSL-performances I tried fine, but I guess some crossfading combinations will not import properly. Kontakt worked perfectly well using the perf.-legatos at least, either externally switched or not. Then I stumbled across the most interesting Kontakt-feature regarding dynamic legatos:
    There is no need to use complicated swichting/processing, Kontakt simply allows to set a velocity-range for any instrument WITHIN ANY HOST. So if you load e.g. the 3 separate Flute perf.-leg grace-dynamics (p, mf, f) and set the velocity ranges from 1-70, 71-100 and 101-127, you get a perfectly playable velocity-switching VSL-legato-instrument!!! WOW!!!! This is fairly impressing. Now that I still used my virtual channel-switching, I was able to get e.g. dynamic-legatos on channel 1, crescendo's on 2, diminuendos on 3 and staccati of that Flute on channel 4 - in real-time!

    CONCLUSION:
    If you are interested mainly in playing back VSL-perf.-legatos and standard articulations, Kontakt seems to be the far better choice. The velocity-range-thing is the killer-feature for dynamic legatos in seconds. Besides, on my system (Athlon 1700+, 1GB RAM, VIA KT266A-chipset, dedicated fast Sample-HD, Windows XP) I was able to make Kontakt use less than 2/3 of the smallest RAM-buffer applicable to HALion 2.0 - while streaming glitch-free. As I am able to get up to 4 dynamic legato-instruments+some basic articulations with that system and I plan to run the woodwinds from Kontakt, I don't need those high polyphonic counts, that make Kontakt use too much CPU-time. Kontakt did't need any more CPU-power than HALion - at least for that specific task and on my system.

    All the best

    Roman
  • K
    K
    yup I tried that velocity range thing too Roman, works nicely [:)]

    I still want to program it all into one patch tho, and make Xfade variations...etc. Quite easy to do tho if you ask me. I'm jsut on other stuff.

    I quite like Kontakt to be honest. Some of its features are goign to help me get some incredibly unique use out of all my libs.

    However I still find it has alot of bugs. While I generally dont worry abou tthem sinc eI find workarounds, it would be nice if it wasn't chock full of them (and some really bad ones too)
  • R
    R
    Hi King,
    yes, I was thinking of putting all this into one patch, but I am too lazy and I am not sure, if the Kontakt-strucure allows to set up vel-Xfaded keyswitch-patches. Besides, I don't worry about instrument-counts as Kontakt works well in multiple instances.

    As you are talking of Xfade-layering, this can be achieved in Kontakt very easily, too. E.g. a 3-layer MW-Xfade-ensemble can be set up like this:

    1. load all 3 dynamic layers
    2. assign all to the same channel
    3. set the p-layer to respond to velocity 1-64, the mf layer to vel. 1-127 and the f-layer to 65-127
    4. insert a mod-wheel>volume-modulator for each group of each instrument (isn't there a way to edit all groups globally??!)
    5. set the mod-wheel-curve of all groups of the
    a) p-layer to go from 0>127 to 64>0
    b) mf-layer to go from 0>0 to 64>127 and from 65>126 to 127>0
    a) f-layer to go from 65>0 to 127>127

    These values should be considered as a basic concept. Fine tuning the curves will be worth it to get smooth Xfades etc.

    Happy Kontakting!

    And:
    If you have some RAM left on a GS-machine, that GS is not able to allocate, then it might be possible to run Kontakt as stand-alone simultaneously and make it stream its samples from a separate HD to eat up the rest of RAM and provide more of these excellent VSL-instruments...
  • K
    K
    ITs quite easy to build Xfades into one instrument. Just make seprate groups for each dynamic, then assign a CC control to the Volume for each group (mod wheel is simple), then create the curve scaling you want for each group, jsut like you'd do in giga, except you can make it exponential if you'd like.

    This is all from thinking of the interface without looking. I'm by no means a Kontakt expert, jsut a Tweak head that tends to try and figure things out in his head before actually trying....its a bad habit of mine. Things tend to look alot easier this way....but then I realize it takes forever. Its how I come up with those weird script ideas, eh herb? [;)]
  • R
    R
    Maybe we could set up a database over here for well edited/converted .nki/.nkm- and .fxp/.fxb-files (without the wave-data), so that any registered VSL user was able to get/share cool mappings for the sounds he already is licensed to used??! Would you VSL guys support such an "exotic-format-exchange-user-database "?? Why should we all construct nifty programs, that others of us might have already being constructing?!

    Any thoughts about this??


    Roman
  • T
    T
    Great idea, Roman -
    this would make all the things a lot more easier (and faster [:D] )
    (Just imagine to translate the complete package to HAL / Kontakt - by your own - AAArrrgghhh). With sharing well translated nki's /fxp's everyone has to fight only a "part" of this nearly endless battle.
  • M
    M
    Roman,

    Great idea! I'm very much into Kontakt as well but use VSL in Giga for now since it just works... As soon as I get some more free time (after my next dead-line) I'll definitely start to explore some cool things that should be possible with the VSL sounds and the Kontakt engine!

    One thing though... The different conversion tools have their own way of naming the resulting wave files. Personally I have Translator and CDXtract in addition to the internal conversion within Kontakt so I guess I'm well equipped, but in order to have this working you/we/herb/cm need to set a common ground on issues like this since only the nki's/fxp's can be distributed.

    Herb and Christian, you have to agree Roman has a good idea here?! [[;)]]

    /Mattias