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  3. Kontakt or Halion please...

  • Kontakt or Halion please...

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    It is unfortunate that Herb and Co. made the decision to go for the EXS24 platform before Logic decided to discontinue support for the PC.

    The software sampler userbase (aside from Giga) is definitely favoring the Kontakt and secondly Halion formats. I am using both: Halion supports my E4 library and has solid disk streaming, Kontakt has very smooth filtering and some interesting synth type features...although the new Halion 2.0 is featuring Waldorf filters and Kontakt is improving its streaming.

    I think any random sampling of users would indicate that these 2 platforms are the heavy favorites. Kontakt especially has been winning many of the soft sampler polls/awards lately. Some salient points:

    1) Both work as VSTI's-the single largest plugin format by a wide margin.

    2) Both are available for Mac or PC and are on upgrade cycles.

    3) Both have superb sound quality (Halion is clean and articulate, Kontakt a bit warmer-even at 16 bit noticably better than the present version of Giga), both are ready to go for 24 bit+, both are very low latency if given a good ASIO implementation.

    4) Both have many, many modulation possibilities, and in fact Halion has a sophisticated Meta-Trig controller function.

    5) I would hazard a guess that as many Mac/Logic folks use Kontakt or Halion as use EXS24 and outside of the Mac/Logic world it is certainly no contest.

    6) I would also guess that if VSL was to make the choice today Kontakt would be the one.

    VSL and Giga support is a natural, but with VSL and EXS24...I'm afraid you are porting your library to but a small minority of the soft sampler community.

    It's not too late too devote the future of the VSL to the obvious future of software sampler development. Kontakt (or Halion) please...

    Thanks,
    Spiro
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    T
    Sprio,

    I agree with the sentiment - the whole library should be as open as possible and to the widest range of users. And in many ways it is - but the user would have to do a considerable amount of work to create the "Instrument" from the samples. I know quite a lot of us have started that interesting and rewarding process.

    Also agree that an idependent like Kontact would be ideal. HALion 1 just did not work in the Mac Logic/Performer Environment - and whilst I use Cubase SX and Neundo 1.6 for some music development these are just not my cup of tea - (forgive the fun but there is nothing logic about them) and I suspect that until they fully support Pro-Tools hardware users will continue to shun them as well.

    I find that I cannot agree your statement:

    ....."but with VSL and EXS24...I'm afraid you are porting your library to but a small minority of the soft sampler community"........

    I am sure that Herb and the team did their own research on this subject - my information is that the ESX is the most widely used softsampler in the Mac community - and IMO if the ESX were fully ported to the PC enviroment rather than the cut down ESXSP VST version is would be adopted by more users.

    Leaving that issue aside - perhaps some third party might take on the task of porting (under license) the VSL Library to multiple soft samplers.

    tattie
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    @tattie said:

    ...my information is that the ESX is the most widely used softsampler in the Mac community
    tattie


    Not quite. It is probably the most used with Logic because the VST plug-ins folder was never fully/properly implemented. So in that sense, Logic users are limited. However, Cubase and Performer are both Mac platforms and the EXS doesn't work in them because it doesn't support MAS or the VST Plug-ins folder.

    Another thing. Apple Emagic doesn't report how many current installs they have of 6.0. So terms like "most used" are meaningless statistically because we lack a number (x) to determine the size of the Logic market, then how many EXS users are there.

    How important is the X factor?

    Important enough that HALion 2.0 will work in DXi (Cakewalk) and that NI has a corporate development policy for their plug-ins to work in nearly all formats.

    Actually, I'm excited to read about HALion importing E-MU as I have tons of E-MU disks and only 128MB RAM in my E4! I'll have to try that over the weekend.

    OH, and please don't feel picked on by my comments. As a publisher, our title development program has to watch these numbers very carefully.

    PA
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    tattie...

    @Another User said:

    I am sure that Herb and the team did their own research on this subject - my information is that the ESX is the most widely used softsampler in the Mac community - and IMO if the ESX were fully ported to the PC enviroment rather than the cut down ESXSP VST version is would be adopted by more users.


    Tattie,

    This is exactly my point....I'm sure VSL did do the research , but then Apple/Logic pulled the rug out from under them...effectively eliminating a huge share of the market. Subsequently of course, Kontakt has taken off big time. A search of user polls show that Kontakt is the clear favorite overall (soft sampler awards/reviews illustrate this as well), and all of us know Logic users that are using Kontakt in lieu of EXS24.

    The chance of Logic making EXS24 a solid VSTI I'd say is non-existant, their strategy is self evident at this point. Also, why would the much larger Kontakt/Halion userbase want to buy and learn another program when the ones they have are working just fine, thankyou?

    To me this should be a pure marketing decision...VHS or BETA, one grows, one dies. By insisting that those VSL users wanting an integrated sequencer/sampler have only one choice of sequencer and one choice of platform and one choice of plugin format...this does not make good business sense.

    It is a shame that Herb has wasted time and money on the EXS support, but I don't think its too late to 'swim with the current'...

    Swimmingly,
    Spiro
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    spiro, tattie, herb has indicated in another post that vsl will support additional platforms in the future. considering the amount of work actually to be done (exs-performance set, pro edition, tool development, enhancements to already released products, ect) i feel it's understandable this will not happen tomorrow.
    also currently some requirements are missing in the mentioned programs to allow the usage of the full advantages the library provides
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    Spiro,

    It looks like you will have to wait a short while (but the best things in life are worth waiting for)

    What I will try and do over the coming weeks, as time allows, is build a couple of Kontact 'Instruments' using the VSL libarary - I will let you know how easy or hard I found it.

    Peter is right there are no public stats which detail fully what systems are used. My information is informal - from the industry, my visits to various Studios, my friends & co-workers.

    Regards,

    tattie
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    tattie, cm, Peter,

    Good stuff!

    I do not mean to denigrate in any way the work that Herb and Co. have done. This is a groundbreaking product...I feel that the 'Silent Stage' model was a wise decision (impulse reverbs are only going to improve and CPU power increase), and the legato articulation programming will change sampling methodology from here on.

    Yes, good things are worth the wait and my cash is waiting for the VSL Winds and Brass translation to Kontakt/Halion (via VSL or through its userbase.)

    All the best,
    Spiro

    PS-I will be getting a Halion 2.0 update which apparently features better Giga import (release layer crossfading?) and will report back.
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    @spiro said:



    PS-I will be getting a Halion 2.0 update which apparently features better Giga import (release layer crossfading?) and will report back.


    I'm VERY interested in hearing your results. The E-Mu import into HALion post really caught my eye. I'd love to know how far you can go in HALion with a VSL import.

    Thanks in advance for reporting this.

    PA
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    Just a small question ...

    Nobody here has VSL and Kontakt, and tried to import instrument ?

    @+
    Spid
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    Hi Spid,
    Kontakt is currently (version 1.2) not able to import gig-files correctly.
    Kontakt does still NOT import the keyswitches (it generally features keyswitches, but is not able to IMPORT them from within the gig-files)
    If you want to use this feature, you will have to split all the multilayers and zones with, for example, the Gigastudio Editor - and rebuild them in Kontakt..... senseless....
    Also the new direkt-fom-disk feature is not working as it should be (to much CPU load....)
    Anyway - the NI guys are working on this to got these problems solved.
    In this case HALion (2.0) is working much better.
    The import of gig-files is nearly perfect with the new version of HALion - and the disk-streaming is working very well.
    Greetings,
    Sebastian
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    Last saturday I talked to Michiel Post, manufacturer of some well known piano sample libraries (www.postpiano.com) at a workshop.
    He announced that his company was very close to finishing and releasing his flagship libraries in plug-in format. They licensed Kontakt for that and added their own performance software. This software does inventive keyswitching, similar to that of VSL.
    To him the advantages where very clear:
    - support of a range of plug-in formats: VST, DX, RTAS, etc.
    - and it can run stand-alone on a seperate computer
    - eliminating differences in sound programming, less hassle
    - copy protection (challenge response).
    A a side note: his libraries of Bösendorfer and Steinway are hugh and meant for professional use.
    Interesting developments...

    Herbert Boland
    www.zepmusic.com
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    @SpIdErWeB said:


    Nobody here has VSL and Kontakt, and tried to import instrument ?


    Yesterday I imported one of the VSL demo instruments in EXS24 format in Kontakt. Results were useless. There was nothing left of keyswitching, all samples were stacked on the same notes.

    Herbert Boland
    www.zepmusic.com
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    @Herbert Boland said:


    Yesterday I imported one of the VSL demo instruments in EXS24 format in Kontakt. Results were useless. There was nothing left of keyswitching, all samples were stacked on the same notes.


    That's a known problem with the Kontakt import. You have to use 3rd-party software to get something useful... Both CDXtract and Translator give good translations to Kontakt format from most Giga files.

    /Mattias
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    I also dicussed this problem with the Kontakt developping engineers.
    They promised, that the import function will be optimized in the future.

    best wishes
    Herb