Thanks a lot for your comparison test, Iwan.
I think that's exactly what people like to hear.

Just want to ad my 2 samples:

If you normalize the first bar of the "Sacre" of an original recording, you will here tons of noise. I can't make the test now, cause I don't have a recording here at the moment. But I would say the first bar (where the bassoon is playing complete solo) is 30 to 40 dB lower than the maximum level of the complete recording.

It would be interesting how much playing noise is left if you add the same amount of recording noise to the sample mock up.

best wishes
Herb

Iwan, in the risk of being considered rude and cheeky by you, I would like to ask you for the midi file you used for the Siedlaczek and Dan Dean versions. (the VSL one would useless to me as I have no performance tool).

I´m programming the bassoon for one of my themes, and I can´t get the legato to sound quite right and your technique sounds very good to me. Maybe your midi file and a couple of notes from you regarding how you did it might help me to improve my "faked legato" technique. Mine sounds a bit too much artificial (specially with winds)

Obviously, if this is asking too much, or you wanna keep any "professional secrets" (if there are any still around) I would totally understand.

On the other hand, if you wanna make my day this is my email adress:

JavierMerono@nucmed.e.telefonica.net


Hopefully I will be able to improve my legato until the day I have the budget to buy VSL.
Thanks.

Javier.

I just want to add a "wow" to this discussion. The VSL version is by far the most convincing and expressive. The note transitions are just uncanny, giving it such an organic believable quality, so much like a real bassoon being played.

I'm surprised by the click comments, as I think they are very quiet and not pronounced at all. And with some slight distance added via reverb, they would be even less noticeable.

All I can say is, please do more of this piece!!! I'm just waiting for the clarinets to come in.

Anyway, thanks for posting these demos.

[quote=Netvudu]On the other hand, if you wanna make my day this is my email adress:

JavierMerono@nucmed.e.telefonica.net


quote]

Javier,
I will send you a mail with the MIDI files and comments. Actually there is not much comments to ad, because they where just played in, in one shot, without a metronome or tempo help of any kind.

Iwan

Hi Iwan!

Did you use the same MIDI file for all three versions, or did you just play the line differently for each? It looks like each line is really played differently, and the AO version looks more consistently played... Am I wrong?

Martin

@MartinL said:

Hi Iwan!

Did you use the same MIDI file for all three versions, or did you just play the line differently for each? It looks like each line is really played differently, and the AO version looks more consistently played... Am I wrong?

Martin

Martin,

You did hear right, I did play three times, eg= 3 MIDI files. About the AO, I do not really know, but it was the last one, so I allready had some practice behind [:O]ops:

Thanks for listening

Iwan

@Another User said:

Javier,
I will send you a mail with the MIDI files and comments. Actually there is not much comments to ad, because they where just played in, in one shot, without a metronome or tempo help of any kind.

Iwan, that would be great. Thanks very much. (I added my name so you
stopped thinkin on Cleopatra [:D] ) I´ll wait for your mail.


As for my clicks comment, I hope everybody will be able to understand from my posts that my surprise derives from the fact that, as I said before, I´ve never played a bassoon and never realized the keys made such a noticiable noise. It sounded weird to me. Probably is more realistic, but I couldn´t help to feel weird about it. If I said I didn´t I would be lying!
This being said, hearing the instrument into the orchestra could possibly make me see my mistake.

Maybe the next few bars would show us how it works better [8-)] [[;)]]

Javier.

The VSL version sound a lot more organic - living, breathing, yearning - as if there were a human in the equation. Great comparision Iwan - thanks.

it sounds to me that the VSL version is the "slowest" responding on the faster figures/appog.'s...

Hehe - you guys, I hate to point this out, but now that I've read everyone's reactions, it occured to me that the piece in question uses a very unusual range for the bassoon. I wonder how much these clicks would show up in the more manageable mid- and low-ranges. Hmmmmmm. [:O]

Of course, in a well EQ'd stereo setting, the bassoon would have a great deal more distance and reverb, so the clicks would simply be a nice touch or realism to an already-pleasing sound.

My 2 cents

Emlyn

Well the clicks are BETWEEN the notes, since the note has to be fingered before it's played. In legato there's the sound of the transition, but still most of the tone is after fingering.
I can't really imagine that range would effect it at all. Unless of course the mechanism for the normal range isn't as noisy. Also, the frequency range of metallic clicks is very high. Certainly way higher than the highest tone a bassoon can play.

Anthony

@tonylombardi said:

Well the clicks are BETWEEN the notes, since the note has to be fingered before it's played. In legato there's the sound of the transition, but still most of the tone is after fingering.
I can't really imagine that range would effect it at all. Unless of course the mechanism for the normal range isn't as noisy. Also, the frequency range of metallic clicks is very high. Certainly way higher than the highest tone a bassoon can play.
Anthony

Anthony,

1. The samples from the beginning of the Rite of spring are not the usual range of the Bassoon. Stravinsky did like to use the instruments in register which are not considered as "normal". He want it to sound difficult. In some ranges the frequencies of the clicks will be more covered then in others. I guess that in case of the bassoon, while playing low notes, for which the bassoon was originally, build [[[;)]]] the clicks may be less. Also it depends how close the listener, or mic, is and the room you record. Some acoustic have tendency to amplify the key noise. Also of course the player should put some oil on the keys from time to time, which most of us do not, in order that the instrument is silent, I mean click silent.... [[[;)]]]

In fast passages the clicks can be sometime used as replacement for percussion [:D]
Iwan

I'm perfectly aware of the high range of the bassoon at the beginning of the Rite of Spring. It's mentioned with every mention of the work actually, in connection with the "riot" at the premiere.
Anyway you have the patch and I'm pretty sure good ears as well. Are the clicks less noticable in the normal range when you play it?
If they are, I'd be a little surprised, but then again I'm certainly no expert on bassoon.
I'm just drawing from my own experience in school band and recordings I listen to.

Anthony

@Another User said:

Are the clicks less noticable in the normal range when you play it?
If they are, I'd be a little surprised, but then again I'm certainly no expert on bassoon.

Certain frequencies do cover up the clicks. I think Dietz could explain this thing better than I. Just a small example: I have a laptop for internet in my studio which does noise, if the air condition is on I do not hear the laptop anymore, because of air flow, which is more pleasant and much lower in level as the laptop. I think this is also how Dither in audio does work.

Iwan

Yep, this is a psycho-acoustical phenomenon called masking, which appears in the time-domain as well as in the frequency-domain. If you're interested in this topic, do a Google-search, I'm sure there is quite some information available online.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

I know about masking, but don't you need a similar frequency range as the noise in order to mask it? That's why I mentioned that metallic clicks are very high frequency, way higher than the highest note a bassoon can play.
Anyway I'm all talked out on this topic!

The recordings of a basson itself can differ in percieved noise ,dependin gon the frequency, your room acoustics, and playback system. This can change the amount of percieved level of the clicks....I guess

Still the basson itself would generally have clicks on every note transition, and depending on how noisy that specific key is, the louder/quieter the click will be.


Now, Herbs right, add some ambient noise in, and use an impulse or tweak some reverb with some filtered out highs, and you lose alot of the "clickyness".

@Another User said:

Yep, this is a psycho-acoustical phenomenon called masking, which appears in the time-domain as well as in the frequency-domain. If you're interested in this topic, do a Google-search, I'm sure there is quite some information available online.

Absolutely. I recommend the (free) guide in pdf format at Izotope site on the subject of dithering. Although it comments from time to time about their mastering product (Ozone) there is an amazing amount of interesting info on the subject of dithering.
I was a real ignorant on anything related to this stuff and now I´m an ignorant who understands dithering [:D]

I've read a lot of "reasons" why the clicking is there, and how it can/should be masked, filtered, etc....

Perhaps it's simply too darn loud and it's bugging some people--for good reason. There is a balance between authenticity and making too much of the things that really aren't what the instrument is supposed to be about.