@JWL said:

This gets us back to the DP/Logic issue. It is my personal opinion that Logic will get to 64-bit before DP does, but there's no telling how soon after Logic makes the leap that DP will follow.

I use DP but recently picked up Logic for half price with and educational discount (otherwise I wouldn't have.) One of my incentives was the idea that Logic could be in the 64 bit world and working for a consideble amount of time before DP. So even just having a MacPro hosting tons VI's in Logic is a welcome idea.

Logic does not seem nearly as plain and as intuitive as DP I would say (as far as learning) but most people who use it love it so I would say check out both programs with an eye for the future potential as well.

@Kerry Muzzey said:

The rumors have been that it will be a Logic + ProTools-esque hybrid.. probably to be the companion to FinalCut that ProTools is to Avid. I agree though -- I'd hold out a little longer before splurging, just to see what the new Logic looks like. At the end of the day, though, it's probably one of those questions of "religion" -- they're all kind the same, it just depends on what you like better.

As long as we're rumoring - do you mean LITERALLY a Logic/Pro Tools hybrid, i.e., a version of Logic that integrates seamlessly with PT?

PL

fwiw-- of the references to PT with respect to the next version of Logic came from articles such as this one which floated around the web a few months ago:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/2/27/7253

I don't think anyone would argue against better integration-- if that's part of Apple's plan, especially where PT is concerned. Not everyone wants to do their MIDI mockups in PT, but chances are many will have to encounter some part of a production where the work they do comes into contact with PT.

The truth is, we really don't know what Apple has in mind for the next Logic. But it's more likely that PT is far too firmly established in the industry as a go-to workstation for way too many high-profile productions for it to be so easily derailed by a Logic update.

Users would certainly appreciate better project interchange. That alone would do more to make any of these companies a hero in the eyes of those users who've ever struggled with compatibility issues between workstations.

I'm sorry, but to me that article is totally groundless. And everything he says is completely unlikely.

First, they could change the name, but there's absolutely no reason for them to throw away all the present Logic users and start over. It wouldn't surprise me if they made the interface easier to deal with when you first learn it, but they're not going to remove all the things that make Logic so flexible once you figure it out.

And it's also likely that they understand what it is people like about Pro Tools that Logic doesn't have. As I've said before, it wouldn't take much to make it work the same way. Everything about PT that makes it easier to edit audio in stems from the way you work directly on the waveform display; in Logic you can only do that in the sample editor. But everything like tabbing to the end/beginning of regions, etc. could follow easily if that one seemingly little operational difference were fixed (and I mean fixed, because the way it works now is broken - much as I like Logic).

That will not make a Pro Tools killer - there's no such thing, as we've seen repeatedly over the years. It's true that everyone would like to be able to interchange sessions more easily, but that's nothing new. OMFs are what they are because I don't see most companies feeling it's a high priority to make them seamless.

If Apple is going to come out with a touch screen - and with Microsoft's table it makes sense they would - it's not going to be dedicated only to Logic.

There's also no reason to *believe* that Logic will acquire 64-bit memory access. We can hope, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen at all.

What cm says about static RAM essentially solving the memory access problem makes me wonder. Will it be affordable before 64-bit audio programs come along?

@Nick Batzdorf said:

I'm sorry, but to me that article is totally groundless. And everything he says is completely unlikely.

I think that's the crux of the whole thing.

Whatever it will or will not be, the only thing we know for sure is that "we don't know". That alone makes speculation about vaporware a waste of time and energy; much ado about nothing 'yet'.

I only posted the link because the term "killer" was used earlier in the thread and some members may not have seen the original blog from a few months ago.

More constructive would be to continue weighing the pros and cons of the versions of Logic and DP we have now and even here only in the context of how each can app facilitates using the Cube for different users' workflows.

@Kerry Muzzey said:

-- but every time I see one of those ads showing that Michael Giacchino uses DP, I get curious about it.Kerry

Which goes to show no matter what you buy, you can write crap using just about anything.

Like Kerry, always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name. You can write better stuff on an Atari than a state of the art Mac with bombastic amounts of hard drives and ram. The talk about Logic 8 seems to concentrate on the accessibility of more than the current approximate 3.5 gigs of accessible ram. I would be pleased to see that and move on to a Mac Pro Dual 3 litre Bastard or whatever it's called.

Somehow, I get the feeling this might not happen though.

@PaulR said:

...always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name.

If I recall, that was the C-Lab sutff-- Creator/Notator.

Just for the sake of nostalgia:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/notator1.gif">

@PaulR said:

...always been a Logic user and before that the stuff on an Atari 1080 with 4 megs of ram - I forget the name.

If I recall, that was the C-Lab sutff-- Creator/Notator.

Just for the sake of nostalgia:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/notator1.gif">


Heheh! That's the one. Yes, that reminds me of a few years gone by. I still have the Atari and the C lab with dongle etc if anyone wants it. Great piece of kit in my view because one didn't get bogged down with 'what ifs'. You just had to get on with what you were writing.

How do you DP users get around MOTU's pretty archaic way of rendering/mixing down to a stereo audio track? I bought DP in January via a competitive cross-grade since I wanted something that handled CC7 volume better than Logic does but found DP5's interface really antiquated and overly convoluted. I had used Sonar on PC prior to that and before that, Mastertracks Pro (and before that Notator 3.1 SL on my Atari ST) so I have been using sequencers since almost day 1 (remember Steinberg's 12? Yeah, I had that too).

Logic's way of mixing down is really elegant but I don't care for how it handles 3rd party plug-ins. With Vienna Instruments, it's not as much of a problem because they are mono-timbral but anything like Kontakt 2 or HALion Symphonic Orchestra are a pain because you cannot separate the volume changes per player (believe me, I've tried but Logic Express cannot do it- so I have to use CC11 instead which isn't quite the same)

My ultimate work around was to buy Cubase 4 which seems like a great middle ground between Logic and DP5. It handles plugs like DP but has a much more elegant interace (like scaleable windows- um, hello MOTU, some of us have myopia).

I still occasionally use Logic because I have all of the Apple Jam packs as well as the fact that the built-in plug-ins on it kill both MOTU and Cubase. At one point I thought of upgrading to Logic Pro instead of MOTU DP but I'm still sort of glad I have DP because of its film scoring features and the fact that its Quickscribe window has THE BEST rhythmic transcription I have ever seen in a MIDI sequencer. Seriously, I can play in septuplets in realtime on the little Mac minikeyboard in realtime and the bloody thing transcribes it beautifully. Logic's notation isn't bad either. Cubase's notation is a mess. I think it's PPQ is far higher than the other two and as such interprets everything as 32nd notes with rests or else weird tuplets. I know there's ways around this but for speed, DP5 and Logic have the edge.

If Apple works out the CC7 thing in Logic 8, I'll happily go back to it. I do like its interface and my workflow on it is pretty quick. Also, my Axiom 25 remote controls can activate the basic transport function on Logic but weirdly not on either DP nor Cubase....

Dave (eagerly awaiting the Saxophones I from the clearance sale)

BTW, Gabriel Yared uses Logic and while he lamented the loss of Vision (lot of film score guys really liked that program!) it looks like he's getting some great results out of it. Not to do any PR but those Yared fans out there might want to check out 1408. It's a nice blend of Yared melodic writing, some atonal BArtok type stuff as well as some fascinating electro-acoustic experimentation like Goldenthal's Alien3 from the '90s. Good stuff.

As for Giacchino, he's done some decent stuff but I agree that a sequencer isn't going to make you write great or bad stuff. Look at John Williams. He doesn't use anything except pencil. manuscript and piano and he seems to be writing some friggin' amazing stuff (still!).

NP- War of the Worlds (John Williams)

@Fiery Angel said:

How do you DP users get around MOTU's pretty archaic way of rendering/mixing down to a stereo audio track? I bought DP in January via a competitive cross-grade since I wanted something that handled CC7 volume better than Logic does but found DP5's interface really antiquated and overly convoluted.

Can you elaborate on "pretty archaic way" etc.? I have many issues with DP, but haven't found that to be the case. Nor, as far as I know, are there any CC7 issues with DP. I know the program very well - would like to know what you mean.

PL

It's probably worth considering that those who prefer to use DP are not likely to consider it as being archaic, antiquated, or convoluted.

The beauty of having Audio Units, RTAS, VST, etc., is that everyone has a choice of how they'd like to use the same virtual instruments and plugins in any DAW of that supports these formats. It's best to find the application that best serves your needs and workflow. Not every application suits everyone's needs.

@JWL said:

It's probably worth considering that those who prefer to use DP are not likely to consider it as being archaic, antiquated, or convoluted.

The beauty of having Audio Units, RTAS, VST, etc., is that everyone has a choice of how they'd like to use the same virtual instruments and plugins in any DAW of that supports these formats. It's best to find the application that best serves your needs and workflow. Not every application suits everyone's needs.

FWIW from my perspective I'm certainly not in the least OFFENDED by criticisms of DP. Got an encyclopedia's worth of my own. But I'm genuinely curious what David C's issue is. Especially the convoluted part - when I returned to DP from a several-years detour to Logic in the late 90's, it just seemed so much simpler and more intuitive than Logic. I'm constantly asking myself whether I should go back to Logic, hence my post.
Plus I started a thread here myself awhile back on CC7 vs. CC11.

PL

@plurye said:

I'm constantly asking myself whether I should go back to Logic, hence my post.

I would wait until the end of this year to see what is happening with Logic. Although when I had a studio set up until last year I always used Logic anyway.

It's hilarious seeing that old Notator interface! [EDIT: I guess I should say Notator-like, as I really can't remember Notator very well... it looks *very* familiar, though.] I remember using that thing on an Atari, way back in the day. Then I "upgraded" to a Centris 660AV - what a piece of crap. But hey, I didn't know any better at the time.

Logic is kind of my "go to" app for production. I prefer working in Sibelius for most things, but if it needs to go to production, then I always wind up in Logic. I sometimes start projects in Live, since it can be kind of fun for testing out new ideas, but I always fall back on Logic. I don't even necessarily *like* it that much, but it really runs well on the Mac.

I would also recommend waiting for the fall. Whatever happens with Logic will probably be worth waiting for, and it will most definitely be a paid upgrade. If half the rumours are true, it could be a pretty welcome upgrade, since there has been a lot of talk about greatly simplifying things, and making it more Mac-like in the process. The chit-chat about multi-touch screen support is intriguing as well - making the screen act as a kind of controller (a la Lemur). But that's probably pure fantasy. And even if it were true, it would be guaranteed to take a *huge* strip out of our bank accounts! [;)]

J.

And I say the update is going to be underwhelming after all the rumor and hyperbole.

Yes, I suppose you're right. However, they have been taking a bloody long time getting it done - you'd think the wait would amount to something.

But if it's at least 64bit then the time won't be totally wasted...

J.

We know that some Logic update is in the future, given that the consideration for no Logic update is unthinkable. Ironically, since Logic has not been updated for some time it does raise questions about the apparent lack of necessity for an update presently.

I can see Nick's point in that too much spec can lead to disappointment. Also, Apple has been fairly subtle with its updates--- improvements, though significant, have largely been skin-deep. Logic still *pretty much* felt like Logic since it was ported from E-magic.

But this whole 64-bit thing has me wondering. Someone has got to take the first step. We've got our favorite fx and VIs in place-- if Logic goes 64-bit, how soon will all else we're using get there? If developers know that Logic is definitely going to have a 64-bit version sooner than later, I wonder if third-parties are planning their 64-bit releases to coincide with Logic's 64-bit version-- or if such updates will simply straggle into mid/late 2008 or early 2009.

On some level, I'm nearly resigned to just waiting until everything I need is on board and ready to go. Since things are working as well as can be expected now in their current incarnations, I'm a bit reluctant to upgrade a little at a time.

Another thought-- once Mac users get a whiff of 64-bit in action, the demand for RAM should be quite robust (as will prices?) as those who've been up to now quite content with 4GB or less will suddenly want to double or quadruple their memory capacities. It's going to be very interesting watching all of this unfold.

Keep in mind, that Apple bought emagic, but they didn't fire all the employees or anything. The original team that worked on in emagic still works for logic (with a few exceptions)

That's very true, Nathan, and it makes it all the more curious regarding what's cooking. The quiet has become quite "noisy" of late. It makes one wonder who of the programmers may be reluctant for too much change and who of them might be more eager to break the mold wide open.

Evidently, Apple is holding a major media event next week that is apparently all related to the Mac. What that means for Logic at this time is unclear. (Somehow, I get the feeling that there will be lots of info geared towards entry to mid-level hardware and software just in time for the back-to-school shoppers.)

Summer NAMM was quiet on the Logic front, so there's nothing left to do but to keep waiting it out. Could be 2008 before anything significant is known, from the looks of things.