@ColinThomson said:

I have often heard it said (and found it to be the case) that different keys will have a different overall feel, such as Db Major being a much 'darker' key, while G Major is a much brighter key. When it is pointed out, I can hear the difference, but I have a hard time finding it for myself. What are your thoughts on how to describe each of the keys? Thanks.

Fixed Transposition

- If you ask, where the keys of well known compositions, for example most pianoforte solo cahiers from the classic or romantic period, carefully chosen, then the answers is yes, the keys, or better tonalities, where very well chosen. And a person who is sensitive to tone color and clang changes thru transposition would be disturbed when the color is changed thru transpoition away from the known key.

But I guess, sentient or tone color memory, an awareness not all people possess, plays also a role. It could also be that this is all routine, a behaviour we learned from the music itself and live with that LvB’s “Für Elise” is in a minor, and when someone plays the piece a halfstep higher some folks hear that, or at least suspect that something is not as ususal. But, what I think is, that if we play “Für Elise“ a fifth higher to the king of Indonesia, and he never heard the tune before, then he either likes the tune or not, and if he has a tone memory, he may will be disturbed too once he hears "Für Elise" in a minor.

This is quasi a system of fixed transposition, where as higher you transpose the music, without octave drops and jumps, as brighter the music sounds, and vice versa transposition doen darker.

The mentioned is only thru when you transpose in a fixed manner, in a manner where no instruments drop, of jump by an interval, most commonly an octave up or down and this when transposition reaches a certain distance away from the original key.

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Flexible Transposition

But when you ask the same question about key choice and transposition for a large orchestra composition, the whole subject is becoming very complex. When you transpose a whole score up or down, then circumstances who come into action become very complex, and only a detailed description of all the possibilities would bring light into the phenomena's and facts that are of relevance and are perceptible.

In such situations the whole thing is getting very complex, this because the possibilities explode to manyfold reasons and circumstances, and also, you are shortly before to make strong changes who affect the overall color. The circumstances can act as single phenomena, for example two parts are equal in harmony and in the same key of Db, but in the second part of the two, the melody is set a fifth higher, but still plays the same melody note movement wise.

Or when several phanomena’s interact for what can make a composition darker or brighter, then we may better make a list of what variations and techniques are avalable for the composer to achieve a desired clang and color change. One thing is clear, two composition can be in Db, and still sound very different in clang and color, so the key alone doesn't mean much.

1) One of the most instrumentation techniques I come across in a color/clang situation is, that I have a melody, but I didn’t decide what instrument will play the melody. Being at this point, it is normal that first you have to decide for the instrument, let’s say a muted trumpet, but then you realize that the melody doesn’t sound right with muted trumpet, but you want to keep the trumpet. and therefore you have to tranpose the melody to the range who delivers the color you are after, and more likely then also the whole rest of the music has to be transposed.

2) In other situations I don’t bother transposing a whole score up or down. For example, simply because the composition all of a sudden needs the root note Ab0 (25.96Hz) with the Contrabassoon, but I am in a key where the root note is F0 (21.83Hz), which is below the range of the Contrabassoon, then I simply tranpose the whole partitura three halfsteps up.

3) In the art how I compose my original music, it is impossible to describe that this or that key is brighter or darker. I could not say it follows the fixed rule that when composition “No. 1 in Db” is tranposed up the overall clang will become brighter, also the reverse could be possible, becoming darker. or just staying about in the same tone color. The music is simply in the color I’m in, the clang, pitch, range etc. I started composing the music, and I can’t remember that I said once, the whole composition is too dark, let’s tranpose it up until it has the right brightness, or it is to bright. lets transpose all down until it reaches the right darkness. But the idea trying that is tempting.

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4) For example, when I compose a Samba for a jazz type sound, and the head melody is set for a tenor saxophone playing in a medium hard to hard sound color, then I would more likely chose the key of Db, no materr if it is major, minor or any other tonality.

5) But when the tenor sax is set to play a melody with tons of air, very soft like Coleman Hawkins or Ike Quebec, then I would choose another key, for example C

This has to do with the instrument itself and the range the tenor sax was constructed to, the comfort of the fingering, the sound itself, and not to forget the niveau of the player you write the music for. You always have the option that the sax player may say: "Ohh this melody has to be played in Bb to sound in full bloom."

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6) The spanish guitar has a strong urge to be composed in E phrygian.

That simply because the standard tuning is all E phrygian. For other tonalities you may use a capotasto, or simply compose in a manner where other tonalities make sense without alternative tunings and capotasto

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7) In my ear, the Vibraharp is almost completly immun to color changes when transposed.

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What just went thru my mind...

8. Before you heard of what we call "Tone" in german, did it bother you when you transposed a composition up and down, did you notice a severe change in your perception feeling wise?

9) Did you ever think that this or that tune by whom ever would sound better in another key?

10) Do you transpose all instruments in the same direction, or from a certain point on some instruments drop or jump into the octave below or above?

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11) Often works have a central body. When this body is of rather melodic nature, and the playing of the instruments participating in this central body where carefully chosen for the desired clang, tone and color from within the instruments range, then this pre given melodic situation will also restrict the tonality choices, the key is actually determined by the melodic body. Often a composer will come to this situation when he composes a melody first without thinking about how he will harmonize the melody later.

But it could also very well be that a segment doesn't have a melodic body at all, but mobile forward with other perpertuum, or the composer thinks of a harmonic movement first, not thinking about what melody he may adds later to the hamonies. When a piece of music arrives at your brain with everything already set, then it is possibly best just to write it down as it is, and not transposing anything around after the fact.

A friend of mine has one of this DJ Pioneer CD turntables in the studio, where you can alter the speed as well the pitch seperately, and in high quality. To me it seems that moderate tranposition doesn't affect my feeling much. Even with orchestral music, where the color of a large acoustic instrument body is altered doesn't bother me when done withhin a halfstep up or down.

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@Angelo Clematide said:

6) The spanish guitar has a strong urge to be composed in E phrygian.

That simply because the standard tuning is all E phrygian. For other tonalities you may use a capotasto, or simply compose in a manner where other tonalities make sense without alternative tunings and capotasto

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Well......, as a guitar player I will reaveal now that there are quite some beautiful other keys available. Usually one recognizes the composer who doesn't know all that much about the guitar when he writes in E ... [;)]
D is a wonderful key, as well as A. G is fine as well as are actually all the other keys.
I never had to use a capodaster.

About guitar, actually about any instruments, to me it is clear that the real instrument is far more flexible in all musical relevant categories, far more then any sampled version of an instrument. In other words, and about color, clang and tone; when I play something on a sampled grand, it sounds wrong. But my inner ear tells me it can not be the music I play who makes it sound wrong, it has to be the sampled sound. Then I go to the other room, and play the same on the pianoforte, and it just sounds right, this even when the piano wasn't tuned since weeks or months. Interesting is, it doesn't matter what brand of sampled piano it is, also the Kawai and other expensive keyboards produce this wrongness.

I was never thought much about those phenomenas's, but was involved in the process of changing around what had to be changed by simply move forward intuitively while composing. But somehow I chose a particular key when I start composing something, but never thought about what it is that I start this composition in F and another in Eb etc.. With pop arrangement it' the vocalist who decides the key.

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Very interasting. Personally I usally compose in one out of maybe 7 keys just because those are the keys my fingers naturally form ( a weakness on my part, I know), but then I will transpose it wherever, because I can play in any key, just more comfortable in some than other (please tell me I am not the only one). But some of what Angelo has said really surprises me. I understand that certain instruments sound better in certain keys, but I have found that if I play, for simplicitie's sake, a piano solo which I wrote, and play it, as I said before, in Db as opposed to G, the tone color is subtly (perhaps very subtly) darker. Now I understand that most listeners would not say to themselves upon having listened to a piece "wow, he really chose a good key for that piece", but it could help. A lot of what the great composers do goes unnoticed by most. But it helps, and is what seperates John Williams from the rest of us.

@ColinThomson said:

... a piano solo which I wrote, and play it, as I said before, in Db as opposed to G, the tone color is subtly (perhaps very subtly) darker.

[H]

You must be kidding, trying making fun of me, right?

I guess when you play the music in Db below G, six halfsteps transposed down, then it is normal that it sounds darker. Play the piano solo once transposed up six halfsteps from G, and listen if the solo played in Db above G still sounds darker, well, I somehow have the feeling it will sound brighter transposed up.

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I tried playing it both ways, up and down, of course. But I am not talking about it in relation to any other key. I am talking about beginning with that key, and no previous key to judge it by. Of course if you want something to sound brighter or more powerfull, you just transpose it up, or down for darker. But I am talking about all keys in relation to each other, yet completely on their own. I don't claim to have anything near what they call "perfect pitch", but I think I can hear a differance (though maybe I am only imagining it). Try both keys on there own. Maybe even play a song in between in a completely unrelated key so as to get previous concepts of the key out of your head.

By the way, I am not trying to make fun of you. I have seen the way you will argue a point, and I don't want to be on the other end of it [:)] (though I certainly don't mind some friendly discussion).

P.S. Someone else must have some views on this. I know there are plenty of opinions out there. Anyone want to share some of their's?

Hi.
I think you are making this too complicated because the answer is simple [;)]

"Db Major being a much 'darker' key, while G Major is a much brighter key"

This "feel" dates back to baroque period when I guess composers had much more interaction with real musicians than contemporary composer (just how many pieces did Bach have performed!)

What these composers heard is just plain physics.

The open strings resonate with notes with same frequnecy!

So in G major you have alot of notes g, d, c, and a which are the same notes as the open strings.

This is the same law as with the indian Sitar which has many strings not to be played on but only to resonate with the music.

What do you mean, "open strings"? Aren't all strings open on a piano?

...in strings (violin, viola etc.).
So if you have ensemble with many strings this resonance will be very audible.

OK, but I notice the differance on the piano by itself. I do know a little about sympathetic harmonics (a very little, because I mostly play piano), but I can hear the differance on other instruments, too. Don't tell me everyone here thinks that all keys are exactly the same, and the only reason to choose one above another is what the singing voice can do, or what individual instruments can do. There must be more than that.

@ColinThomson said:

Don't tell me everyone here thinks that all keys are exactly the same, and the only reason to choose one above another is what the singing voice can do, or what individual instruments can do. There must be more than that.

[H]

Congratulation, you got it. In twelve-tone equal temperament all keys are equal!

In todays music where the equal temperament is in use, all keys are equal, or in other words, they can only be darker or brigther by range, pitch, instrumentation etc., but not different in timbre by having in each key different interval proportions.

In the times of Johann Sebastian Bach, that was not the case. With the temperament he was using, each key had another timbre, and was used accordingly. When you play Bach’s composition on a keyboard tuned to the tempreament he composed with, you can hear the dramatic’s when modulating to the most far away keys from the pure center key the instrument is tuned to, and certainly he made use of that in absolute perfectionism. There are sad keys, joyful keys, keys for the Lord, keys for requiems, keys for blondes and brunettes etc. etc..

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Sorry, but I didn't even know that Bach used a differantly tuned keyboard. Fascinating. Where can I fined more info on this? Why aren't these techniques used in modern music?

Also, I understand the theory behind all keys being equal. My ears just tell me that it is not true. I used to think that the chord G sounded differant than the chord A when playing in the key of D because of the key, but the G would sound the same in the key of C as the A in the key of D. In other words, I, ii, iii, IV V vi viidim sound the same in any key no matter which chords (or notes) happen to fall on that progression because of the key. But I don't think it is so. I think it is far more complicated than that, and I thought that I was not the only one to think so. But maybe I am. Interasting.

Because I am not (yet) into professional music, I don't know very many people who I can discuss this sort of thing with without going way over their heads. So I am glad I found you people to try and sort this sort of thing out with.

Wendy Carlos is a master at this stuff, applying different tunings at different times (even in the same composition).

Equal temperment notwithstanding, certain notes on every instrument will sound different. On piano, as you move up or down the keyboard notes will have one, two or three strings, the direction the strings stretch across the piano frame changes, sympathetic resonances are more or less pronounced in different sized pianos, etc.

On the clarinet, for instance, the chalumeau register is quite narrow so to have a melody transposed out of that range will result in a markedly different sound.

Chord voicings have effective ranges, as well. Certain note combinations will lose their power or color when moved, chords can become muddy and less distinguished when lowered. The more chromatic a voicing becomes the more pronounced this effect that registration and orchestration will have. What I mean by this is chromatic in a non-diatonic context, NOT "dissonant cluster of notes." The voicings I refer to would be more spread out.

Clark

@clarkcontrol said:

... certain notes on every instrument will sound different.

"Nicht immer, aber immer öfter"

(engl. "not always, but always more often")

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