@William said:

You might be able to do that. I remember Herb mentioning someone using a Gigapulse hall for placement, then routing that through Altiverb for depth.

Though that is pretty complicated and I am trying to simplify things. Jay Bacal mentioned to me an approach he is using (at least sometimes) with correctly placed dry multitracks that are fed into several different distances of AV.

What bugs me in AV is the fact that the stage icon is not accurate, or you cannot use it within the parameters that are right there in the interface. You are "forbidden" to spread the sources wider. That is stupid! THEN WHY CAN YOU SPREAD THEM ON THE PICTURED STAGE? I find that completely screwed-up programming. In Gigapulse, exactly where you place something is exactly where it sounds from, and there is no "forbidden" placement like spreading the AV sources too wide.

I agree .. I find the same problem. DG is doing something we aren't [:D]

But yes .. recording the audio through GIGA as a multirtrack and then feeding it through AV later is what I had in mind in my above post .. I just didn't articulate it very well.

@hetoreyn said:

I agree .. I find the same problem. DG is doing something we aren't [:D]

But yes .. recording the audio through GIGA as a multirtrack and then feeding it through AV later is what I had in mind in my above post .. I just didn't articulate it very well.

Can you post some examples, so that I can hear the problem? I'm sure that I'm not doing anything different. Maybe I'm just a bit deaf. [[:|]]

DG

Sure thing .. have a listen to this theme I've been doing lately.

This was mixed using 10 instances of AV. Each one was for an instrument group .. Violins .. violas .. etc.

And all panned according to the presets. Now .. I used no other FX .. EQ .. or filtering. The EQ on AV was off .. as was the dampener. Also The IR colour is off, and the direct signal .. is of course muted cos I'm using the Stage Positioning feature.

So this is as natural as it gets .. but as you hear .. it sounds bloody awful!

I'm in the process of remixing this pieces .. but this will give you a clear example of what some of my AV mixes have been like .. when I've been going .. "by the book".

http://www.elvenmusic.com/public/Drizzt-Audio-bad-mix.mp3

Hetereyn, this does sound weird (though your music is very good). It sounded immediately to me like you have completely separate environments for each group. In other words, they are not coming from different places and blending into one overall environment, but are all in their own little world. You know what it reminds me of? An old Beatles record, where the reverb was all within the individual tracks.

I'm not sure how you did this. This is all presets? Hmm...

I just realized one of the things that confused me in the AV interface. People used to it may not think this is any big deal, but to someone used to Gigapulse it is very screwed up.

The stage and speaker icons never change their default positions, except to represent mono to stereo, or stereo to stereo, or except in a preset that has been manipulated.

What is confusing and badly programmed about this is that they have created a graphic representation of a stage, with sources, but those representations do not change based upon the impulse you select. You can select a widely spaced one in a cathedral, a tiny one in a bathroom, and they are all in the same graphic place on the stage.

This is totally different in Gigapulse. When you load an impulse, the grid that shows placement - of both sources AND microphones - changes to reflect the new environment. That is how it should be done since the whole poinbt of the graphic view is to show the physical space.

I have a lot more experimenting yet to do with Altiverb-- and I change my approach constantly.


Current thinking:

Pan and narrow with Waves S1.

Use default Altiverb IR (no speaker placement), consider muting direct sound if phasing is detected, adjust wet/dry mix knob between 18% and 50%.

Favorite Altiverb IR's: Vienna Conzerthaus and Amsterdam Concertgebouw.

For Chamber works I like Wizooverb Large studio at 40% wet/dry.

Best,
Jay

@hetoreyn said:

Also The IR colour is off, and the direct signal .. is of course muted cos I'm using the Stage Positioning feature.

Hetoreyn-- this is incorrect. Using the stage positioning feature requires direct signal. In fact, when you use it you can NOT mute the direct signal. So you should rarely use any dry signal when using the Stage positioning feature or you will get phasing.

Best,
Jay

I am going to try that exact approach right now, except I am panning within Vegas audio which seems very accurate. Thanks for the info Jay. I think you are right about constantly experimenting.

Bill-- I should note that I've yet to do a mix I am totally happy with. So as Dietz is fond of saying-- use your own ears-- if it sounds good to you it is good (and the converse is also true-- if you hate the sound then don't do that way!).


The tricky part is that sometimes it sounds great one day and terrible the next. Go figure!


Best,
Jay

@hetoreyn said:

Sure thing .. have a listen to this theme I've been doing lately.

This was mixed using 10 instances of AV. Each one was for an instrument group .. Violins .. violas .. etc.

And all panned according to the presets. Now .. I used no other FX .. EQ .. or filtering. The EQ on AV was off .. as was the dampener. Also The IR colour is off, and the direct signal .. is of course muted cos I'm using the Stage Positioning feature.

So this is as natural as it gets .. but as you hear .. it sounds bloody awful!

I'm in the process of remixing this pieces .. but this will give you a clear example of what some of my AV mixes have been like .. when I've been going .. "by the book".

http://www.elvenmusic.com/public/Drizzt-Audio-bad-mix.mp3

This does sound strange. However, why did you switch color off? My mixes sound nothing like this.

DG

@hetoreyn said:

Also The IR colour is off, and the direct signal .. is of course muted cos I'm using the Stage Positioning feature.

Hetoreyn-- this is incorrect. Using the stage positioning feature requires direct signal. In fact, when you use it you can NOT mute the direct signal. So you should rarely use any dry signal when using the Stage positioning feature or you will get phasing.

Best,
Jay
Jay, Direct signal and dry signal are not the same. Direct signal is processed by AV, dry signal is, errrr, dry....! You shouldn't get any phasing when using both. However, if you set your mix to less than 100% you will get phasing.

DG

I just did a mix with less than 100% wet - using about the same as what Jay mentioned though I went between 45 to 64% wet and there is no phasing at all. Also, it is now much clearer and better defined. This was on a mix I did 100% wet previously that sounded terrible.

BTW I have been comparing these Altiverb mixes to an overall reverb wash from my Lexicon mpx500 that I use for CPU-friendly monitoring while working with MIDI. It is very difficult to get Altiverb to sound anywhere near as good as the Lexicon.

@William said:

I just did a mix with less than 100% wet - using about the same as what Jay mentioned though I went between 45 to 64% wet and there is no phasing at all. Also, it is now much clearer and better defined. This was on a mix I did 100% wet previously that sounded terrible.

BTW I have been comparing these Altiverb mixes to an overall reverb wash from my Lexicon mpx500 that I use for CPU-friendly monitoring while working with MIDI. It is very difficult to get Altiverb to sound anywhere near as good as the Lexicon.

This is why I add dry signal to the 100% wet mix. I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again anyway. I think of AV (100% wet) as the room ambient mikes and the dry signal as the close mikes. When I can be bothered I use a small send from the dry signal to my Lex in the same way as I would when using the close mikes of an orchestra recording.

DG

@hetoreyn said:

Also The IR colour is off, and the direct signal .. is of course muted cos I'm using the Stage Positioning feature.

Hetoreyn-- this is incorrect. Using the stage positioning feature requires direct signal. In fact, when you use it you can NOT mute the direct signal. So you should rarely use any dry signal when using the Stage positioning feature or you will get phasing.

Best,
Jay
Jay, Direct signal and dry signal are not the same. Direct signal is processed by AV, dry signal is, errrr, dry....! You shouldn't get any phasing when using both. However, if you set your mix to less than 100% you will get phasing.

DG


I admit that I am not certain of what I'm about to say but... my current muddled understanding is that while dry and direct are not the same they can be close enough to cause some phasing. The folks at Audioease mentioned that setting the color button to IR (instead of flat) will lessen the likely hood of obvious phasing and the amount of delay applied by AV to the direct signal will also have an effect on the potential for phasing. The more delay (further back on the stage?) the less possibility of phasing issues.

But I admit I could be completely wrong!! This is just my understanding as of today. Audio engineers please step forward and weigh in. [:D]

Best,
Jay

Jay, this is one reason why I say use the color knob and set the mix to 100%.

DG

Here is a direct quote from Peter Bakker of AudioEase from their forum:


Re: Direct Vs. Dry Sound...
Reply #2 - 26. Mar 2007 at 09:19 Quote The 'flat direct' sound is the dry signal, but delayed and gained to take the place of the direct sound in the IR. This was done so you can use uncolored sound for the speaker placing options.

Both colored and flat direct clash with untreated dry sound: they are so close together that they will cause comb filter effects.


Re: Direct Vs. Dry Sound...
Reply #9 - 27. Mar 2007 at 09:27
The issue is not that different from the ones described above: the direct sound in the IR can cause phasing problems with the dry sound, and that will be worse when it's color is turned to flat.

The direct sound in the IR is later than the dry sound, giving a few samples delay, causing filtering and phasing effects.

@JBacal said:

Here is a direct quote from Peter Bakker of AudioEase from their forum:


Re: Direct Vs. Dry Sound...
Reply #2 - 26. Mar 2007 at 09:19 Quote The 'flat direct' sound is the dry signal, but delayed and gained to take the place of the direct sound in the IR. This was done so you can use uncolored sound for the speaker placing options.

Both colored and flat direct clash with untreated dry sound: they are so close together that they will cause comb filter effects.

Jay, this is exactly my point. If you think about it, in the real world adding close mikes doesn't cause phasing, so why should the dry sound when it is added to a mix?

DG

WHAT???!!!!


Why is there a wet-dry knob if it should not be used?

(trying to remain calm... trying to remain calm... trying to remain calm...)

The issue has to do with the way Altiverb creates their IR's. There is a direct signal component to their IR's. Some companies remove the direct signal from their IR's. A synthetic hardware unit like the Lexicon has no direct signal (I might be making up this fact and could be completely wrong about this!!!). That is why adding a dry signal to a Lexicon wet signal does not create any phasing. But the Altiverb IR's have a direct signal plus early reflections plus reverb tail. This is why adding a dry signal MIGHT cause some phasing. If the direct signal and the dry are too similar you may get an unwanted phasing effect. Therefore, if you want to add dry (and I like dry in my mixes) then it might be necessary to set the color knob to IR and turn down (or even mute) the direct signal. Of course, if you don't hear any phasing (or if the slight phasing adds a desirable warmth) then you can just leave the direct signal alone.

Best,
Jay

@William said:

WHAT???!!!!


Why is there a wet-dry knob if it should not be used?

(trying to remain calm... trying to remain calm... trying to remain calm...)

You can use it, just don't (probably, possibly, maybe) add dry sound as well when it's not set to 100% wet. I think that it is of most use when not using stage positions.

DG