Unison/divisi considerations & their proper string libraries

[stephen limbaugh]

I am a quarter year into VSL having made an initial purchase of SE1+, VIpro, and VEpro.  I am considering purchasing Dimension Strings I and Orchestra Strings I.

I need advice from users of the DS1 and OS1 Full as they relate to orchestration requiring divisi/unison sections, and efficiently programming those sections.

I have familiarized myself with the odious "transposition trick" (TT) and have read a number of forum posts regarding ways to expand the number of players in DS1 such as their placement on the virtual stage, humanize settings, etc.

It seems to me that this is the best way to mockup a score which requires a full contingent of strings with divisi sections:

VIOLIN 1::

OS1 for all sections where the section plays together.

DS1 with TT for all divisi passages, which will allow divisi for up to 4 ways.

VIOLIN 2::

OS1, except for passages in unison with the 1st violins, then apply TT.

DS1 with TT for all divisi passages.  (This shouldn't cause a sample/phasing conflict with the 1sts because they will be on different pitches... cause if not, then why write it as a divisi?)

VIOLA/CELLO/BASS::

DS1 with TT for each section to increase size.

 

THOUGHTS & CONCERNS::

--The blend between OS1 violins 1&2 with DS1 violas/celli/basses... will this sound cohesive without added sauce?  The DS strings sound objectively better, so the aim is to use as many of them as possible while avoiding complicated templates that tie some players down to the (for example) sul G patches while others play normal.

--Will I need the MIRpro software to keep each section 'in its place' spatially?

--The character of the string sound when switching between divisi (DS2) and unsion (OS1) in the 1st violins should sound natural, correct? 

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hi Stephen

Combining strings is always an intersting process. By changing the balance between String libraries you can change the over all sound from small to a large ensemble or you can add some more charakter to a large ensemble with the solo strings or also with the dimension strings. So combing DS with OS will enhance will be a very versatile combination. 

Concerning the missing "divisi"-function with OS I would not think about too much. With such a lot of OS-players it will not lead to a total other sound when you split the 14 violins into 7 or in our case in twice 14 violins

If the OS Library is combined with the DS Library the "mistake" of the not splitted OS within divisi-sections is even less a problem. Further, keep in mind that the more other instruments are "involved" in the virtual orchestra the more will this matter disappear as well.

So far my opinion and experience in mixing String-Libraries.

Beat

 

PS

VI-Pro also can play two and more) legato-articulations with OS (not splitted but several voices at the meantime)

 

[stephen limbaugh]

Forgive me if I'm not understanding correctly.

With real string orchestras, divisi sections change the character of the string sound, especially when it is a 2/3/4x divisi.

By simply adding notes in a section, it doesn't reduce the number of players per part, rather, adds them.  So if you are using a cello section of OS and play two notes, the sound you are hearing is of 10 cello players playing EACH note for a total of 20 cellos.

Make sense?  I'm trying to avoid this so mockups better translate to what a real orchestra would sound like.

[jasensmith]

@stephen limbaugh said:

By simply adding notes in a section, it doesn't reduce the number of players per part, rather, adds them.  So if you are using a cello section of OS and play two notes, the sound you are hearing is of 10 cello players playing EACH note for a total of 20 cellos.

Make sense?  I'm trying to avoid this so mockups better translate to what a real orchestra would sound like.

Welcome to the world of sampled strings Steve😉  This can be quite mind boggling sometimes.  Wait till you start blending the mutes😶

If you have solo strings you can always blend the solo cellos in with the OS celli but then bring out the solo cellos more by increasing their volume and reducing the OS celli volume then it doesn't sound like 20 cellos even though it's actually 22.  Or, use two instances of chamber celli. 

In reality, blending strings from sample libraries has become an art in itself to be mastered like anything else.

BTW did you use VSL for Hillary's America?

[Beat Kaufmann]

@stephen limbaugh said:

Forgive me if I'm not understanding correctly. With real string orchestras, divisi sections change the character of the string sound, especially when it is a 2/3/4x divisi. By simply adding notes in a section, it doesn't reduce...

Hello Stephen

Of coarse you are right so far. Jasensmith mentioned it above... Getting "real music" with samples is much more than copying the reality. So I repeat in other words Jasensmith once more: Mixing the 14 violins of the Orchestra Library with the 6 Chamber Violins for example ends not in a sound of 20 violins - more  in a sound between 14 and 6 violins depending on the mixer balance... 

So using any ensmble strings library together with the solo strings can thin out each ensemble by changing the balance beween ensemble and solo - if this important... But:

Choosing not "natural" articulations, mixing the orchestra in a bad manner, using effects (EQ, Panner etc) the wrong or bad way or using a score program instead of a DAW can influence the final result of a piece much much more, than the small mistake "not treated the question of divisi the correct way".

Listen to these following 4 examples what differences we can have - beside the question of divisi:

Eine kleine Nachtmusik A)

Eine kleine Nachtmusik B)

Eine kleine Nachtmusik C)

Eine kleine Nachtmusik D) ...Welcome to the world of sampled strings, Stephen

 

All the best

Beat

[stephen limbaugh]

@jasensmith said:

Welcome to the world of sampled strings Steve😉  This can be quite mind boggling sometimes.  Wait till you start blending the mutes😶

If you have solo strings you can always blend the solo cellos in with the OS celli but then bring out the solo cellos more by increasing their volume and reducing the OS celli volume then it doesn't sound like 20 cellos even though it's actually 22.  Or, use two instances of chamber celli. 

In reality, blending strings from sample libraries has become an art in itself to be mastered like anything else.

BTW did you use VSL for Hillary's America?

This makes sense - thank you.  It seems by mastering blends between SS, CS, OS and DS, I could do a pretty accurate mockup of this (see attachment).  I love the texture this creates and am looking forward to hours and hours of second guessing myself. 😉

Hillary's America was an educational experience where I learned I need to develop a skill for managing the personalities and expetations of D'souza's philistine probationers.  Unfortunately, only single 7-second line done with VSL made it's way into the film.

When given carte blanche, I wrote a rendition of the Star-Spangled Banner which we recorded in Nashville at Ocean Way scored for 72 in the orchestra and 50 in the choir, along with a tenor soloist, child soloist, organ, and piano.

Since it loosely pertains to VSL (Sychron Stage), I can share that the mixer/engineer for this session was Dennis Sands and his four original M50s.  Before the recording, I also was fortunate enough to have it looked over by orchestrator Conrad Pope who made suggestions and gave tips.  This part of the process was an incredible and unforgettable experience I'll cherish forever.

[belkina]

I often use the Chamber Strings for divisi, or sometimes Dimension Strings. Both can sound quite convincing if you get the balance right. :-)

[William]

To create a good divisi of a unison string group can be done two ways: 

1) Use Dimension Strings exclusively and simply split the parts (which means a fairly small string ensemble overall)

2) Create a divisi with a large ensemble split into two or more smaller ones

The second is something you can just audition and decide what you like.  I have found that Appassionata Strings can be split very well into either Orchestral, or Chamber, even though the exact numbers of players don't match. This is basically  because you get the big string sound being changed into two or more smaller more intimate "close up"  sounds and it can sound very natural this way.  One other thing to do is change the overall level of the divisi so it is cut in half (or something near that) for each part.  This adds to the realism when combined with the difference in timbre.  

It is actually easy to do if you simply have a variety of the libraries and use smaller ensembles for divisi.  

Though as I mentioned the great Dimension Strings allow total realism of divisi to Debussy levels.  And you can use doublings of Dimension if you pitch-shift/transpose the entire ensemble.  So this would allow 16 violins in divisi.  

[William]

To add some specifics since this is an interesting question I experiment a lot with myself, I have been regularly using and in fact set up routinely templates that have

Appassionata violins with divisi into OS on 1st;  

OS with divisi into Chamber violins on 2nd;

App violas with divisi into either Chamber or OS violas;

App cellos with divisi into OS.  

These setups are for divisi into 2 parts.  As I noted it is crucial to lower the volume of the divisi instruments down at least 5 db.  What happens when this is done is a slight timbral change but continuous amplitude that sounds very natural.  I have also noticed that any layering - such as solo strings or Dimension, - on top of the ensembles adds immeasureably to the sense of smoothness of the lines and realism.  If one is doing more parts, i.e., three or four part divisi, it becomes essential to go with smaller  purely chamber sized or even solo players to avoid thickening.   An example of that was a cello line I had App cellos on, but which had to play a sudden three part chord at the end.  For that I used Chamber cellos substanstially reduced in volume - about 8 db - and it sounded very smooth and natural.