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  4. Vienna Imperial - F5 has considerable intonation drop when pedal is depressed

  • Vienna Imperial - F5 has considerable intonation drop when pedal is depressed

    J
    J

    Hi

    Firstly I have to say that I absolutely love these samples, but there is just one thing that is presently holding me back from using them in my professional recordings. F5 is already very slightly flat to my ears (which wouldn't exactly be too much of a problem) but unfortunately as soon as I depress the sustaining pedal it drops still further making it almost a quarter-tone flat. It's obviously very noticeable in all my recordings that something is up here (since the drastic variation in dry/wet F5 suddenly removes the illusion of there being a real piano!!). I've done a web search but no-one else seems to have mentioned this glaring fault. Is there anyone else out there who has this problem or is it just me for some reason? I'm pretty desperate to find a way around this problem since I can't use the samples professionally until this annoying little problem is solved. Is there a way that I can re-tune these particular samples? Or, at the very least, is there any other clever workaround that might help me cover this problem? (the only thing I've thought of so far is recording my pieces, removing all the F5 notes by hand from my performance, then make another track, raise the pitch of the whole sample set and record just the F5 notes, then 'blend' the two tracks - it's possible to get around it this way but obviously it's incredibly tedious!!).

    Many thanks in advance.

    John-Paul
  • S
    S

    bump ... also interested in a statement from VSL ...
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    @jpgandy said:

    "(...) is there any other clever workaround that might help me cover this problem?"

     

     How about using two instances of the Vienna Imperial in your sequencer?

    One instance for the "regular" notes, the other instance for the F5-notes, fine-tuned to the desired pitch.

    Sebastian
  • A
    A

     Hi John-Paul,

    Now I am wondering: what sequencer are you using?

    If it's logic and if you wouldn't mind to run two or three instances*) of the Vienna Imperial simultaneously, I guess I could create a set of environment objects that'd result in a workaround smoothly working in the background.
    Once implemented, you wouldn't have to edit anything in your recorded midi-track at all.

    *)
    instance 1 for the "regular" notes
    instance 2 for the F5-notes with pedal up; fine-tuned to the desired pitch
    instance 3 for the F5-notes with pedal down; fine-tuned to the desired pitch

    Sebastian
  • J
    J

    Hi,

    The issue here isn't so much how to create a work around but is the note in question in correct pitch or not.

    Be good to hear VSL's take on whether a tuning anomyly has slipped through the net or if it's a subjective thing.

    Julian.
  • J
    J

    Hi Sebastian!

    Many many thanks for your suggestion. I'm running Pro Tools 9 on a PC and to be honest I'm very new to it (and sequencers in general!) so I've absolutely no idea how I could set some sort of automated environment as you seem to suggest in Logic. To be honest the F5 without pedal doesn't bother me that much (I certainly know that NO piano is ever perfectly in tune) but the change in pitch when the pedal goes down is the thing that sticks out badly to me. Such a shame, otherwise everything else is incredibly pleasing to me!

    Do you mind explaining a bit more about this Logic environment set-up you have in mind? Maybe it'll help me find the equivalent in Pro Tools (as I said, I'm an amateur at present!)

    Many thanks again,

    John-Paul
  • J
    J

    Hi Julian

    Well, I wrote directly to VSL too to ask for help on this issue. The answer I got back is one that I wasn't exactly surprised at. They are very proud of these samples, and I understand that - they should be! They really are the best piano samples out there, but they are adamant that they are the way they intended - that they are "perfect" because of all the imperfections that give it real "character". I got a long email telling me how much time and expertise went into acheiving them and such, and yes, I do understand that it's the imperfectness of any piano that gives it a realness, a character, but a note that drops in pitch when you depress the pedal? Hmmm.... it's obvious they don't really want to commit on this issue (and they offered me no further suggestions on how I might hide this annoyance). It seems they are happy to go with "for someones ear a specific sound is out of tune and for another person is exactly the same sound top notch".  So I have no choice but to find my own way around this problem.

    Do you happen to hear the same issue I've mentioned? (as yet I haven't read of anyone else claiming to be bothered by it which has surprised me in all honesty)

    John-Paul
  • J
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    @jpgandy said:

    Do you happen to hear the same issue I've mentioned? (as yet I haven't read of anyone else claiming to be bothered by it which has surprised me in all honesty)

    Well it's on my purchase list hence the interest.....  could you post a short audio of f5 followed by f5 pedal?

    Best,

    Julian
  • J
    J

    Hi Julian

    here is a link to a short F5 comparison:

    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?q5251jkmtrbpt29

    I play F4 first followed by an F major chord so that you can easily attune yourself to the general pitch - then I add F5 without pedal, repeating it a few times before alternating sustain pedal down/up. I will stress that this is the only note with the whole sample-set where the pitch changes when the pedal is depressed, and quite honesty I can still highly recommend purchasing these wonderful samples. It really is just this one annoyance, and maybe it won't be a big deal to most (if you are using the piano blended with other instruments I'm sure that it wouldn't be as discernible as it is in it's naked form here!)
  • J
    J

    Hi John-Paul,

    Thanks for posting the excerpt. I can hear a difference in "tail pitch" between the pedal up and down but to my ears at least the note pitch itself sounds the same (or extremly close) The effect is almost doppler like in that the initial note is followed by a reverberation at a lower pitch.

    But this is what I would expect in that the pedalled F5 sample has all the piano strings vibrating so there should be a broader/deeper decay.

    I just tried the same note on my Yamaha grand (real piano) and the effect was similar. Without hearing a comparison with the notes directly above and below it is impossible know if the F5 is unique in this respect.

    I would say, to my ears at least, the excerpt you played does not distress my pitch nodes! but I do sympathise if it sticks out in your track.

    Regards

    Julian
  • michiM
    VSL Team
    michiM

     

    To put it simple, we've had to choices:

    1. Using the original recordings the way they are, to preserve the original character.

    2. Flatten any imperfections and to take the risk, to edit the piano to death.

    If we would have chosen scenario number 2, we wouldn't have a single posting in a forum, i'm sure. But would be such a Piano be also a better Piano? In my opinion, not at all!

    It's not a question of being more careful and meticulous during the production process. The Vienna Imperial was our third virtual piano product in cooperation with the guy's from Bösendorfer and we decided, to follow a certain philosophy. OK, one could play a single key, with and without pedal and complain this philosophy is odd. Top notch? Annoyance? It's a fine line. What would you do in the middle of a piano concert, if F5 is beginning to sound a bit flat? Would you stop playing and quit the concert? Of course not. The audience would judge the music, the interpretation and the sound of the piano. That's what counts for me, even with a virtual piano.

    The Vienna Imperial is the best result the whole VSL team - recording engineers, editors and software developers - could achieve at that time. We've chosen scenario number 1.

    I'm aware, jpgandy is only looking for a solution for his problem and i have all deep respect for his postings. But i hope for your understanding for our point of view in this case.

     

    All the best, Michael Hula

    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • J
    J

    Hi Michael

    Please be assured that I am not knocking your wonderful product at all (it's not stopping me from recommending them to anyone who asks me!), and maybe I've been unclear in my postings somewhat - I'm not worried at all that any notes might be slightly 'out of tune' because of course this is actually very natural tuning. Every single piano that I have ever played on (and believe me I'm playing on different ones every single week of my life) has it's own quirks and oddities. It's what makes them endearing and characterful (and occasionally frown-producing!) and all part of playing a real instrument. I'm not at all complaining that your samples are out of tune. It's just the obvious drop in pitch that occurs with F5 that I wanted to try and find an easy solution to cover the best I could. I also understand that since I'm primarily recording solo piano works that it's going to be a little more obvious too, and I have to be honest and say that I don't notice it that much in all the pieces I've recorded - but in any piece where there are multiple F5s following each other it is very noticeable to my ears, and I've also played them to a few musician friends with good ears who can also clearly hear the change in pitch (otherwise, I can attest that no-one has been able to tell straight-off that it's not a real piano!). Honestly, I'm so glad you didn't muck about with the samples to make them "perfect" - believe me, I truly love the sound you acheived. I just have a personal discord with this one issue (sorry!), but at least I know too that it's not impossible to adjust it myself to my aural pleasure. I guess I just hoped there might be an easier way of satisfying my reservations! You can be rest assured that I'll find a way since I have no intentions of using any other piano samples at this juncture!! Really, thank you. You've opened up recording possibilties for me that, financially, I would not be able to acheive otherwise.

    many thanks again,

    John-Paul
  • michiM
    VSL Team
    michiM

     Thank you for your reply and you nice words, John-Paul, i really appreciate it!

    All the best, Michael Hula
  • D
    D

    Feature request.

    I don't own this particular sample set yet, but am considering it very seriously.  However this particular issue has me on the wrong side of the fence.  I have to concur with the original poster that the samples for F5 are too far out of tune.  So I'd like to request a feature enhancement for the player.  

    I note that the most recent version of the player has added the ability to EQ each individual key.  I'm guessing this was done in response to user requests and/or a criticism in reviews that I've seen elsewhere.  

    So how about per key tuning?  You already have all the technology needed in VI Pro2 stretch and render feature.  You just need to apply that capability to this player and do it on a per key basis.  

    This way one can fix issues that are particular to their taste.  I am generally in agreement with the approach taken for this sample set and that some imperfections can be a good thing.  But when my acoustic piano goes too far out of tune, at least I can call a guy and get it fixed.
  • H
    H

     Hi dbudde,

    thanks for your input. The Vienna Imperial engine is heavely optimised and specialised for piano playback performances. No tuning corrections are done inside the playback core engine. The engine itself is a unique developement and based on a complete different core engine than VI  or VI PRO.

    This enables better playback performance and higher sonic quality, because no pitching or resampling has to be calculated in realtime. The obvious restriction in that case: there are no tuning options availabe.

    best

    Herb
  • D
    D

    Herb,

    Thanks for your response.  But I think you misunderstand my request.  I understand this capability does not exist in the current player.  This is a request for a future version of the player.  And, I am not asking for real time pitching or resampling.  Only the ability to tune a note and render it to a sample that can be mapped to replace the existing samples for that note.  Rendering to be done not in real time of course.  

    Barring that capability, I'd like to request that you fix the F5 samples because, based on the audio expample I heard posted earlier in this thread, they really are too far out of tune.
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    @jpgandy said:

    Do you mind explaining a bit more about this Logic environment set-up you have in mind? Maybe it'll help me find the equivalent in Pro Tools 

    Hello John-Paul,

    As far as I know, the environment possibilities are really special and unique within logic.

    So I guess that option is a dead duck.

    What you can do with your midi-recording is:

    1) Extract the pedal-down F5's to another midi-track.

    2) Copy the pedal down/-up midi-controller-events as well to that second track.

    3) Sent these F5's and pedal down/-up events to a second instance of the Imperial, which you fine-tune to your desire.

    (Of course, the imperial has to be able to be fine-tuned [:|])

    The extracting and copying-operations can very likely be taken over by ProTools (so you don't have to extract every single note/ midi-event by hand) - of course you would have to give ProTools the corresponding commands [;)])

    Yet: The extracting of the F5's might be a little tricky, hence you'd only want to extract (and fine-tune) the pedal-down F5's and not all F5's.

    That's the best solution I can think of for your sequencer.

    Good luck,

    Sebastian
  • J
    J

    Thanks Sebastian! I'll certainly give your suggestion a try.

    Thank you again for all your helpful input regarding this particular issue. I really appreciate it.

    Best wishes,

    John-Paul
  • A
    A

    Hello John-Paul,

    thank you for your thank you.

    There is one thing that might get in the way of my suggested workaround:

    When you hit a key on the Vienna Imperial and, while that key is still down, change from pedal up to pedal down: does the sound change in any way?

    With a real grand piano in that situation the sound deepens since the now un-dampered strings of the other keys start to resonate.

    I'd guess VSL has thought of that and incorporated some sort of blending/x-fading in that situation.

    So, do you hear any change of sound when you switch between pedal up/ down while a key is down?

    And, if yes, how does that change effects the F5 in question?

    Sebastian
  • J
    J

    Hi Sebastian

    Sorry for the late reply to your question. No, there isn't an audible change in sound that I can hear if I've hit a key without pedal and then depress/raise the pedal after. It's a good point you've raised compared to a real piano, but at least it'll make my personal customisation that little bit less complicated!

    Many thanks again.

    best wishes,

    John-Paul