Are there any video tutorials or the like re the use of Release samples.
I am not clear how and when these are used effectively.
Kanon
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Release samples
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@Maya said:
actually the Release Samples can not be heard seperately, they are incorporated into the patches automatically and can be switched on or off ("Play Release").
This brings up another question. When would you turn off your release samples? I think I saw a video, or maybe it was in the VE manual, where they suggested turning them off during "very fast" passages. I tried that and it just sounded better with the release samples on. Maybe my passage wasn't fast enough. So how fast is fast? I was thinking 16th notes in common time at 120 BPM. That might be fast but not "very fast?" I don't know. So when do users turn off the release samples?
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Hello Kanon
Release Samples (RS) come with certain samples, other samples do not own such RS.
You can see it within the sample display of the VI. > RS: no / RS: yes
I recommend to try out several articulations with RS ... on and off.
For example the sustain articulations come with RS. If you switch off the RS here you get an unnatural and abrupt stop of the sound.
So I think it is not really a good idea to switch off the RS for sustain samples.
Another example: We also have RS with trills. Releasing the key of the Keyboard will trigger the RS of the current trill and finish it.
This can sound very natural - but only when the time is given for this (more or less long) release sound.
Such an "overhanging" release-sound can be very disturbing within faster parts.
So this could be a situation for switching of the release sample.
Best
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
Any patch that you hold the note longer than it's given life, will result in a bad after sound of a release patch if the given patch has a release sample. So in those times it's best to turn it off for that one note. You can set a switch to turn it on and off.
For instance, you like the sound of the legato patch more than the sustained patch for a certain note. However after 10 seconds the note fades/dies away but you keep holding the keyboard (you will get the same result by drawing in a note that's to long as well). The second you let go of the keyboard you will get a blip note from the release which is horribly annoying (but expected if you understand why it's doing that). So either shorten the note length in your editor, change patches or toggle off the release patch for that note.
Maestro2be
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Here's another feature request for VIPro...
It would be nice if VI detected when such a release sample is inappropriate (eg a legato sample has almost reached the end) and automatically muted it in such situations.
Perhaps the default programming of the instruments should also utilise speed detection to remove release samples when they would cause an unnatural sound.
Tom
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Here's one more feature request for VIPro...
I would love, that VIPro automatically detects what I want to play, so that I can leave the computer for some minutes. [H]
After coming back VIPro did all the necessary jobs for me in the best possible way. That would be great! [Y]
I hope that we can get this feature with the first release!!! [;)]
Beat Kaufmann
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
Well, Beat I'm not so sure your sarcasm, although in good humour, is quite appropriate here. When a legato sample is held beyond its duration and RS is on you get this note appearing which has no place there. I would consider this to be a slight patch programming bug which could be easily fixed with internal programming that checks for the current sample play position and then turns off RS when close to the end.
Right now it requires automation to turn of RS at the required time which is not too difficult, however, it would be a more professional look for VI to do this automatically. There is plenty to do already without getting bogged down with correcting a "clumsy" aspect of software. Also, by default there is no midi control parameter assigned to RS switching so this needs to be incorporated into any templates which could be a lot of reworking if you didn't consider this when creating the template in the beginning.
[quote=Beat Kaufmann]I would love, that VIPro automatically detects what I want to play, so that I can leave the computer for some minutes.I think VIPro absolutely should derive as much information from the way music is played in as possible. The Vienna team have already gone a long way towards this with legato, speed detection etc, and it sounds like they are thinking about ways to continue this innovation. I think there is room for improvement in the way the legato/sustain patches work and utilising sample play point may be a possible way to do this. I'm sure we would all love a patch that allows us to play the wonderful legato, and yet does not have a duration limit, by somehow blending a looped sample towards the end of the legato sample which then does "the right thing" with the next note.
Cheers,
Tom
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Hi Tom
First of all, I'm happy that you understood my post as a joke.
But obviously you've got too, that I'm not a friend of automatic controls because we can't really connect 'music' with 'automatic'.
So, in case of "improvements" with new automations I hope that we can switch them off as well.
So we will be free to use them or not. This for getting the most flexibility.
All the best
Beat
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
@inwinterhesleeps said:
Here's another feature request for VIPro...
It would be nice if VI detected when such a release sample is inappropriate (eg a legato sample has almost reached the end) and automatically muted it in such situations.
Perhaps the default programming of the instruments should also utilise speed detection to remove release samples when they would cause an unnatural sound.
I'd definitely agree with this, it always seems bizarre to hear a release sample after a note has completely ended.
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@BJF said:
I think that there are far more necessary features that don't have work arounds IMO.
B
Yes, perhaps, and you should definitely post about them in detail. Let's put everything on the table so that one day we may see some of the best ones implemented. The more the Vienna team know about difficulties their users have with the software, the better the chance of getting software that doesn't rip us out of right brain trains 😊
Tom
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Well I guess that the most obvious would be getting rid of phase problems when using velocity crossfade to change velocity layers. However, I'm sure that this would take A LOT of programming development time; but I would say it is the most important feature which doesn't have a workaround, and I would much rather time spent on features such as this.
B
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For example the sustain articulations come with RS. If you switch off the RS here you get an unnatural and abrupt stop of the sound.
So I think it is not really a good idea to switch off the RS for sustain samples.
This is heresy I know, but to me most of the release samples including sustain instruments are completely unnecessary if you are using reverb and adjust the release time slightly. This is because of the silent stage recordings. There is almost no sound to them and if you add any reverb they are non-existent in a mix. Turning them off saves memory and prevents that annoying pop on a solo violin or whatever. The only instruments that really need them are effects like the end of a trill, the end of a percussion roll, or the piano perhaps. Also of course, the pipe organ which was NOT recorded on the silent stage, and so you can hear the reverb of the concert hall.
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One other thing about using release samples - it is supposed to be unnatural to turn them off. But they do not exist on about half of the articulations you will use - for example, any dynamic sample that you do not use for its whole length (which of course happens very often) and any portato, long detache or marcato or any medium-length short note which you don't use all of and yet have no release samples. So about half of the notes you use will not have release samples. So whether it sounds better on sustains or not it doesn't really matter, because you will not have any release samples about half of the time.
So using release samples only makes sense if they are loud ones - like the pipe organ, the repetitions where they are very valuable, trills, rolls. But otherwise, they are absolutely inaudible and cause problems. One other problem with release samples I am not sure I mentioned -
if you are doing a sudden change from on-note velocity to velocity crossfade release samples do not respond to the change. And so you have a sudden POP of sound when the sustain is correct. This is when you switch from crossfade to note-on velocity or vice versa within a note in order to make an instantaneous change and is a programming glitch inherent in the release samples whose level is determined in that case by the original note-on velocity. I doubt very many people noticed this, but using sudden switches from note-on velocity to crossfade velocity within a currently playing note is an extremely good trick for doing actual dynamics that players use very often. ALso, it is helpful for adjusting instantly levels between different articulations that do not match. And release samples as they currently exist mess that up completely.
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@William said:
if you are doing a sudden change from on-note velocity to velocity crossfade release samples do not respond to the change. And so you have a sudden POP of sound when the sustain is correct. This is when you switch from crossfade to note-on velocity or vice versa within a note in order to make an instantaneous change and is a programming glitch inherent in the release samples whose level is determined in that case by the original note-on velocity. I doubt very many people noticed this, but using sudden switches from note-on velocity to crossfade velocity within a currently playing note is an extremely good trick for doing actual dynamics that players use very often. ALso, it is helpful for adjusting instantly levels between different articulations that do not match. And release samples as they currently exist mess that up completely.
This explains some inexplicable issues I've been having. Thanks for sharing this William because I hadn't considered release samples being the culprit.
